RE: Healthy herd myth
 

Well sead bawana!I think a few of these guys get more fun out of picking at one another and seeing just how long they can keep these boring threads going.[&:]

RE: Healthy herd myth
 

I believe that having a balanced age structure for bucks and does is an important part of having a healthy herd. So is keeping the population in tow with the envirnment.

RE: Healthy herd myth
 

I say "Forget the wind, just hunt."

I'm sorry, I could not help myself.

Hi, my name is Robert and I am a respondtoatlas'threadaholic. It is a disease. I want to change though, I really do. And with the right med.'s I find this thread most exhilerating.

LT

RE: Healthy herd myth
 

Atlas take a look at KY tag system I really like it. You get two tags 1 buck 1 doe. You can choose to shoot them anyway you wish. Gun or bow.

Would KY tag system be ok with you for NY ? If not why? I will explain why I like and why I suggested to the DNR and MUCC board after your response.

RE: Healthy herd myth
 

PA started Antler Restrictions a few years ago.

There are certainly many more nicer bucks now as opposed to then.

Everyone seems to think the herd is healthier now.

The thing everyone fails to realize is, the bucks are just older. They aren't any more healthy than the young bucks were years ago.

Before, most bucks( about 75% ) were killed their first year with their first rack. There were fewer deer that would survive long enough to let time increase their rack size.

Now with ARs bucks live longer and therefore gain a few years and with that a bigger rack.


Does anyone feel that the older bucks of today are any less healthy than the 1 1/2 years old bucks of yesterday?

They have the same genes, eat the same food now as they did then. the only difference is age.

To me, an older deer isn't a healthier deer.


I know my anology isn't exactly what the topic is here. I just wanted to explain how some people confuse what a healthy deer is.

RE: Healthy herd myth
 

Nature's way is to eliminate the weak and unhealthy and allow the biggest and strongest to live and pass on their genes. Its been that way for eons.

Is this what trophy hunting is doing?

I think they do the opposite.

RE: Healthy herd myth
 

How is it the opposite? when you kill most of your bucks at 1.5 years, you have NO idea which ones are bigger and stronger yet. Give them a few years to mature and sort things out and the dominant ones do the breeding. Everyone thinks that when you kill a big one it hasn't had a chance to pass on its line. It has had all those years it lived to do that.


One other thing thrown out in general. Is it possible to have healthy individual deer, in an over unhealthy herd?

RE: Healthy herd myth
 

Well, when you take that big boy out of the herd, he won't be passing on any more genes. But the little buck with smaller antlers will.

I see you are from PA. If you look at the way PA has been before ARs, any buck with at least a 3 inch spike was legal. It was that way for a long time.

Now with ARs, we are seeing lots of nice bucks. So after all those years of shooting any buck, we all see that there are stiil good genes out there floating around.

I do agree with your point about letting them grow and it will be easier to see whick buck has the better genes. The only problem is, he is the one that will be everyones first choice.

The other part of the equation is the genes that the does are carrying.

The only thing I see are older deer. I don't believe they are healthier, just older.

RE: Healthy herd myth
 

Your kidding right?

and the little bucks genes won't improve with age. Basically that little bucks genes could be better then the big bucks.

RE: Healthy herd myth
 

Windwalker, this has been covered before ad nauseum. A herd health and animal health are not one in the same. Ultimately, a healthy herd would lead to healthier animals, but just because your herd health is not good does not mean you have deer starving to death. Our state has the capacity to sustain a very unhealthy herd. This is evidenced by the fact that our herd has been one of the largest in the nation with a terribly out of balance buck to doe ratio. This affects dispersal rates, breeding patterns, maternity numbers, and a number of other factors that would be different in a "healthy" herd. The slaughter of does that took place while ARs went into affect was necessary to try to balance that ratio. Now, there is more competition during the rut leading to the deer that are supposed to be breeding (the older ones) doing he breeding and the younger bucks taking a back seat and getting stronger to take the place of the older deer when they are gone or dispersing to another area. Telemetry studies have shown that buck dispersal takes place over the greatest distance between the ages of 1.5 to 3.5 years of age. Then abuck's home range is more established. If it is not necessary to disperse it could have adverse concequences from inbreeding. We are lucky to have avoided this by having so many does that inbreeding was still unlikely even with short dispersal distance.

With all that said, older bucks do indicate a more mature herd if they are in a good number and the doe ratio is balanced. You don't want a herd of 1.5 year olds.

The thing that irritates me the most about Atlas' point is that we are made to feel like we need to justify our desire for a trophy. Every other aspect of society is predicated on "showing out." It is looked highly upon to have expensive cars, diamond watches, big houses, etc. Heck, the heroes of our society, professional athletes, are not put to shame when they hold out on a contract that they agreed to 2 years ago because they now want a few more million dollars. Why should we feel guilty about wanting to hunt bigger antlered deer? I for one do not. I want big antlers and I want to shoot the biggest bucks I can. If the state will help make the bucks in my area grow bigger to satisfy that desire, I will support it 100%.