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Taz, I probably should of just stayed out of it as well. I just can't understand why my bow would be 2.5X more effective with 7 pounds less draw weight, 2&quot; less draw length and the same arrow weight. The only discrepincy that I see is that I actually took my bow to the range and recorded all of that information, I didn't type numbers into a data base and call anybody foolish. I mean, this moose only weighed ~1200 pounds on the hoof and my lightweight arrow surely won't work on it.


ArcticBowMan's Hunting Photo's
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You are one post back where I pointed out that you had confused two bows in your criticism.

Congratulations on your moose!

Based on my post, do you think it would have been better to use a heavier arrow for moose? Do you thnk that the same arrow is best for moose and for deer? You wouldn't trade a couple of inches in effective range for 20% more penetration on a huge animal such as you took?

My max range is 40 yards, in which I have gotten a full pass through on a caribou with the same arrow set up as the moose, except I was using a 125 grain shockwave mechanical vs a 125 grain muzzy. I use the same set up on everything, from ptarmigan to moose.

It might of been better to use a heavier arrow, but neccassary? No.
ArcticBowMan's Hunting Photo's

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beprep, are you comparing this to data from bows 20-100 years ago that don't even come close to comparing to todays advancements in archery?
ArcticBowMan's Hunting Photo's
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Let me apologize for the title of the thread - obviously one can hunt ethically with, say, 7 grain per pound arrows. I'm just saying it is that one would be better off with a heavier arrow - especially on a bad hit.

I apologize again and ask that you get past my bad title and consider the argument.

The data uses a 300 fps benchmark for the IBO arrow. It is from the Hoyt UltraTec for 2003 but I don't think that this matters.

beprepn

Umm... Let me get this straight. You're saying that my 28.5&quot; draw length, 72lb draw weight Legacy bow shooting 28&quot; Beman ICS Hunter arrows tipped with 125-grain Muzzy 3-bladers (total arrow weight = 444 grains) won't &quot;ethical&quot; to hunt with? Good Lord, how much penetration does it take to be ethical? I know people who elk hunt with 55-60lb older bows and 330-360 grain arrows, getting complete pass throughs. One is the best bowhunter I've ever known and dropped a big 6x6 this year with a pass-through that broke one rip and nicked another with his 60lb bow and his &quot;unethical&quot; arrow. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Once the arrow is gone from the bow, it really doesnt matter what bow shot it when you start quoting weights and speeds. From a willow stick to a xbow, an arrow in flight knows not what it was shot with! Take that into account also!

Beprepn and Mohr,

between the two of you...ya both are right on!

Its really funny to watch people hit on speed, &quot;performance&quot; etc etc, then bounce an arrow off a moose rib and wonder why? (and yes I have first hand knowledge to this!)

At one time I believe the AMO standard was 8 grains per pound. I do think 10 is a little high for what most need or are willing to go. figure 8-10, some 8-12 per pound. I think now the amo is 6 grains per pound, ibo is either 4 or 5? Makes sense why most of the bows out there sound like rifles upon release!

Krisken...there are states that regulate arrow wieght! I live in one of them!

Last but not least, I KNOW my setup will penetrate a whitetails shoulder x2! Proved that unexpectedly the fall of 01. Dang I was shooting one of those stick thingymajiggers too! Shame when someone with a &quot;higher performing&quot; piece of equipment cant out perform it. Everything relates to the arrow....everything!

I quoted draw length, draw weight, and arrow weight on my bow because I haven't had time to chrono it yet. I just got an email from someone estimating that it would probably be around 287fps, but that seems about 10 too high from my own estimating. If I use my guess of 275fps, that gives me 74 ft-lbs of KE. Happy now?

Lets not factor shot placement, and whether or not the arrow is flying straight out of a well tuned bow vs a arrow flying sideways out of a bow that is out of whack. An arrow will lose alot more energy flying sideways than it will if it is flying straight. There ARE other parts to the equation.

I think a better argument for ethics would be shot ability, equipment reliability and confidence.
ArcticBowMan's Hunting Photo's

its neat to play with the equations and figure out what kind of performance you are getting....
but dont let all the numbers cloud the fact that almost ANY arrow coming out of ANY post-caveman bow will pass completely through a deer at 'ethical' shooting distances.

light arrows are not unethical..... unless you take it to the very extreme

** I almost got him but I refuse to take a marginal shot **

I also strive to optimize my hunting setup and give penetration one of the key regards; not because it is always necessary for textbook perfect broadside hits, but because if/when an arrow strikes an area that is difficult to penetrate, I want my arrow to travel as far as possible to reach vital organs (ie; through a shoulder blade, ham, brisket, etc).

I've found that an arrow of 9-13 grains per pound of draw weight seems to optimize my setup. Lighter arrows offer the advantage of a flatter trajectory and greater leeway in range estimation, but that's it. Arrows of weights that I prefer offer better penetration, make a bow very quiet, make the bow sweeter to shoot due to less hand shock, may extend the life of the bow, and still provide a reasonable trajectory. Going heavier, the arrow's trajectory becomes too highly arched to manage well over even close distances; accuracy suffers and diminishing returns is reached. My own hunting arrow sets range in weight from 600 to 775 grains for the 60 to 70# bows I hunt with.

Arrow weight alone is but one part of the equipment equation in considering the optimum hunting arrow. For example, broadhead design plays another key role, particularly in regards to penetration and tissue damage. (I prefer a long, slender, cut-on-contact, one-piece, 3 blade head...but that's another thread.) Every bowhunter must make equipment decisions based on their priorities and needs, having to balance the often opposing effects of each variable he chooses. The archer insisting on a light, fast arrow may do well for tough-hit penetration if he couples his light arrow choice with a slender, cut-on contact 2 blade head. Of course, arrow weight becomes more critical when slower bows, particularly stickbows or early compounds, are the weapon of choice.

I probably missed it.... but I'm visiting on my sons computer and don't have time to read all the replies. Just exactly how far do I have to shoot through this deer with my 7gpp arrow before he's dead and an ethical kill.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>