A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

I went out bowhunting last night. I have one antlerless tag to fill, so I just hunting for meat. I was doing some spot and stalk on a herd of deer. I got about 45 yards from them when I stopped. Seen a couple does and one nice 10pt buck. Even though I wasn't going to shoot the buck I was more interested in it and was watching it more than the does. Then they must have caught wind of me or something, because they all started snorting and the does ran off, but the buck stayed. He stood there for a couple minutes which was very odd for a mature buck to do. Then he started walking and I noticed one of his back legs was mangled. He could hardly walk. Was all humped up, and was obvious he was in a lot of pain. I probably could have ran him down if I wanted to. Then it got me thinking, what should I do if I had a shot at this buck? Should I put him down and be a humane hunter or just let him suffer and eventually die since it would be ethically wrong considering I don't have a tag? I've been raised to put down any animal I see which is in a position like this. I've done it with a lot of my own pets and other animals, but never a deer. It's not like I would keep the deer if I did shoot him, just put him down and left for the coyotes. The spot is in the middle of a 2 mile section, on the edge of my property line. I may not see him tonight, but then I might, i don't know.
Visit My Updated Hunting Page

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

It would depend on where I was hunting. On my property Ihave put him down.

GO PACK!

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

Simple If you don't have a tag than you are not supposed to shoot him.
If you do shoot him without a tag its poaching. Might not be humane but that's the law. Mother nature will take care of the deer in one way or the other.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

I would say put him down, for one that wound will probably get him eaten by coyotes anyway and for two if he does make it till next year that wound will make his rack next year all messed up and who knows what else. But on the other hand you might have a hard time explaining that one to the game warden. Go for it if you don't get caught. By the way make sure you at least cut off the antlers.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

That's it exactly Bees. I mean it's a noble thought to take out a badly wound animal but without a tag you've broken the law. Mother nature will take care of it's own. There maybe some situations I would shoot. A gut shot and near death or in any other near death injury to quick'en it's death but if I don't have a tag I'll have to live with the consequences if caught. JERRY

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

It would be illegal for you to shoot the buck,but that doesn't make it wrong.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

I agree with both of you on the illegal part but if a horse gets hurt they kill it, if a dog or cat gets hurt they shoot it. A deer although a wild animal is still an animal and I think that if he is hurt as bad as he says that it is really only fair to shoot him. If that was me wounded out in the woods I would want to be put out of my misery. But different people have different opinions I see where both of you are coming from.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

The difference between you and me.... I would have already done what I was going to do and I never would have told you.... or anyone probably for that matter. Maybe Len or someone I hunt with.... but the rest of the world doesn't need to know one way or the other.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

Easy....find a tag!



Seriously though, if the buck looks that bad...shoot him. I wouldn't go bragging about it though.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

It sounds like you were raised in a rural environment aand could tell within reason that the deer certainly wasn't going to make it. If I was 100% sure he wasn't going to heal up, I'd put him down and take my arrow home and never mention it again.


"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Simple If you don't have a tag than you are not supposed to shoot him.
If you do shoot him without a tag its poaching. Might not be humane but that's the law. Mother nature will take care of the deer in one way or the other. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I guess that same logic would apply to hitting a deer with a vehicle but that is not completely dead. Either tag it or leave it to suffer alongside the road.
If it is obvious the deer is not going to make it, be humane and take him out. Clear and simple. Just my opinion.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

Do you know the game warden in your area? Is he/she reasonable? If so kill it but don't say a word to anyone. If busted I think you have a substantial argument with a reasonable game warden.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

Here we go again! What is ethical is not always legal,what is legal is not always ethical. After some soul searching do what is right and keep your mouth shut about it.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

If it were obvious that the deers' injury was going to cause it a lot of suffering before it died, I know what I would do. To me this question is very similar to someone breaking traffic laws to get to the hospital with or to see a sick/dying loved one.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

shoot him. It may not be legal, but it's humane. If it can't hardly walk, then it's time to finish someone else's job.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

this is a no brainer......NO you don't put him down...it's not your job. call the DNR and tell them the location and let them make the call.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

I didn't see him tonight. But I've made up up mind already and won't say either way what I do. Just wanted opinions from you guys. And see how you'd handle the situation.

The landowner ended up coming by today, just to talk to my father about some business. He ended up telling me that he shot a big buck back there and couldn't find it during rifle season. Could it be the same buck... perhaps. All the deer are in one herd and he's by himself. I counted 22 does and 14 bucks out in the wheat feild the other night, yet didn't see him. I doubt the buck will make it more than a couple weeks. I do know the GW, but nothing will get done in this situation.
Visit My Updated Hunting Page

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

this is a tough question! i do not know what i would do until the time came, but i do know, if i put the animal down it would be in my freezer and not left for the yotes.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

no matter what you decide to do the idea of taking it's antlers changes if from humane to poaching. I guess it's poaching either way from a legal standpoint. But taking a trophy from the animal changes everything.

Just my opinion.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

Man you guys come up with some dooseys! I'm a big stickler for keeping it legal. But I don't know that I could of let that animal walk, or gimp away knowing that he's only going to fall prey to some coyotes in a couple of days. Like was said above, it's like seeing a deer hit by a car and dying. What do you do? This truely is a gray area. I think if you did put him down and got caught, you might be able to successfully argue your case in court depending on the judge. I would definately try to document the case with some pics first if I did get caught. Just my opinion. I by no means want to influence any one to break the law though. I think I would try the game warden way first. And if that didn't work then take the matter into my own hands.

KEEP IT LEGAL. KEEP IT SAFE. OR WE MAY NOT GET TO KEEP IT AT ALL.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

There is room sometimes for your own &quot;Don't ask, Don't tell&quot; policy.

Some of the other arguements are compelling:

In my state the Dept. of Wildlife agents would say there was nothing they could do.

Walking away was an option, but if it wasn't eatin' at you, you wouldn't have posted.

Legally, you have a much more viable and obvious infraction only if you take some part of that deer home. That's up to you. Maybe wait a while to salvage the headgear.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

I'd call the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks and talk with them if you're nervous. Ethics tells us one thing, the law another.

Best of luck.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

I know in my area the game wardens are spread too thin to come out and put a wounded animal down during deer season. You might get one to come to the scene of a traffic accident and put one down but most likely this would be done by the officer working the scene.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

If I could run out and almost catch him (Not that I would recomend trying) but knew that I could. I would consider that Mother Nature has ask me to do her and him a favor. No it and walk away. Its the walking away that would kill me. Such a wast.

Over 15 years ago I was in Col. hunting elk. I had split off from the others to go to a water hole not too far from camp. I was coming around a little hill that had a sheep fence along its lower edge. As I got closer to the water hole I heard noise and as I eased up I found a spike Mule deer buck that had hung its back legs in the fence. It back legs were broke and it had been trying to get loose for several hrs from the looks of things.
I thought about letting mother nature take care of it, but decided that I had been placed there to do it. I did not shoot it but droped my coat over its head and then cut its throat.
The hard thing again was to walk away. Young buck and we had been eating c rations for a week. Man! Fresh meat on the old camp fire. Not in season, only 1/4 mile from camp, NO, No, No! I couldent do it. Cussed myself and walked on to the water hole.
Just as I got to where I wanted to set and watch the water hole I hear noise coming down the trail from the other direction. You got it! Not one but two game wardens on horse back. They checked my license and I decided to tell them about the deer. They ask me to show them where so I did. We talked about it after they looked the deer over but that was all. Last I saw of them or that buck was them going over the hill. I sure was glad I did not cut a few steaks off him.
Rick

Lifes not about knowing the answers, its about asking the questions.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

Well, Cardeer and I know what we'd do.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> And we haven't even sat down to figure out what is ethical or the law or anything... but we know what we're doing.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

GOD, Country, Corps, Family, Self.

What is good for the lowest common denominator is good for the greater. I'd echo the writing of Who & say that I was put here to put him down.

In my woods I shoot(and maybe drag), don't tell, and don't cut.



Aim small miss small

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

In my neck of the woods we didn't used to have yotes when I was younger so I would have killed him as it would have been a long death without a decent predator around. I would have dropped him and you guys would have never heard about it as that is a personal decision you (or I) would have to live with. Now that we have coyotes around, I doubt he would suffer for long, so the decision might be different.

&quot;We do not inherit our wildlife from our fathers, we only borrow it from our children.&quot;

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

budbowhunter....i disagree. i don't think that he would be able to make an arguement that would satisfy or justify putting the animal down. one way to say for sure is for kshunter to call the DNR and inform them of the senerio and ask for permission to take the animal. their first question is going to be &quot;do you have a valid buck tag?&quot; and its MHO that you couldn't collect enough evidence via pics, notes....etc..etc..etc, to prove that the deer is going to expire. the only evidence that the court would be interested in is a dead deer that died as a result of an injury, which would be impossible to get if kshunter put the deer down. game hunting seasons regulated by the state and requiring a lisence are property of the state, and officers (wardens) etc, get paid to oversee and facilitate the game herds and or flocks. we all feel bad when we see an animal suffering but in a case like this, better walk away or be prepared to pay a hefty fine or worse. the law's a funny beast and isn't set up to let human emotion intercede.



Edited by - nodose on 12/31/2002 00:30:51

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

As cardeer and a few others have said there is legal and ethical and there is illegal but ethical. To me it is an easy one, if the deer is in a real bad way and will not recover, but is suffering, ask the man above what to do, I can tell you what he will tell you, put him down! I will not let an animal suffer! Period!

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

Who is to say if it will go on living or not? Sure, an animal will not live if it has been disemboweled, spine shot, ect., but it would only take one more night, two at the most, before a pack of coyotes, wolfs, bear, ect., gets to it and takes it out of the status of the living. Animals are alot tougher than anyone could ever imagine, and face adversity every day. Letting the animal alone and letting nature take its course, is the only way to handle this situation.

Answer me this, how long has the Kansas deer season(rifle) been over?? If it is more than a few days or a week, there is a possibility that the animal will make it, even though it may be a slim one. I am by far no self-proclaimed expert, but I have spent many hours in the timber each year, and have seen several animals that have had a lower section of a leg missing, severe chunks of flesh gone from a hip, ect., and have seen them year to year. They may get around slowly, but they can still get around when it counts. I know you were probably being sarcastic about running the animal down, but, we both know that one would have the fight of its life on its hands when trying to tangle with a wounded animal. They have 4 things in life to do that are passed down in their genes, eat, sleep, make little babies, and to survive, that is it, and they do it better than most other game species. I understand that you are troubled on what to do, but it is my opinion that leaving things left alone is the only way to go. It is the natural thing to do, even though a unnatural act such as a car impact, poor shot by a hunter, ect., caused the situation in the first place.


......We are all, at best, part time hunters, they are always full time survivors.....

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

You could always throw a cardeer lasso around it's neck and perhaps its magical powers would heal the ailing buck and restore it to never before known strength and vigor. <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

This is all too weird. I've been away the past ten days enjoying time off with the family and getting a few days to hunt.

I seen this thread and find that I just lived out a similar scenario on the afternoon of the 28th. I had only one archery tag left before &quot;tagging out&quot; on state property and was waiting on an adult doe.

6-8&quot; of snow on the ground and I had hunted the 26th, so I checked along the river for fresh tracks. I found fresh tracks, blood and along the tracks was a semi-circle drag mark. Every 50-75 yards, a spot where the deer had laid down. No one on the north side of the river following the trail. I was the only hunter on the south side of the river in the area. When I got close to it, she stands up and begins walking right between two of my stand locations. Her left leg dangling half way down the shank.

Anyway, after 1.5 miles and over two hours later I got close enough to put a crossbow bolt through her chest. She had been shot during the past 24-48 hours with an arrow as evident by the three bladed enterance and exit wounds and the same pattern through the shank bone. I had again &quot;tagged-out&quot;, but this time it didn't end the way I had hoped. But from the moment I saw her, I knew something had to be done. Not for the harvest, but for the deer itself.

I know all too well about the coyote population in that area, witnessed a large male take down a yearling when another larger male came in to finish the job. This 2.5 year old doe would have been even easier prey.

Was it ethical, legal, humane or moral? Yesbut that's my opinion.

I know what I would do in your situation.





Shoot often - Hunt always

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

DForce my hat is off to you, you finished some slobs job and put the doe out of its misery. Oh and I bet she will make some good eating to boot.

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

This is a situation that most hunters will find themselves in at some point in thier lives. If you are having problems making a decision then you are best to follow the law on this one because it is the only way you can insure that you don't get into trouble. Around here you never know when a game warden is around or someone is watching through bi-nocs somewhere to turn you in.

That being said I have made this decision in the past and would again in a heart beat. Somethings are above the scope of the law and are not intended to be looked at in such a literal term.

I got to follow Davidmil on this one

Quote &quot;The difference between you and me.... I would have already done what I was going to do and I never would have told you.... or anyone probably for that matter. Maybe Len or someone I hunt with.... but the rest of the world doesn't need to know one way or the other.&quot;



&quot; Anyone can be a father, but it takes a real man to be a Dad&quot;

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

A couple of years ago, I used one of my doe tags to harvest a crippled doe with only one working back leg. I was pleased about that and wanted to use my other tag on another crippled doe in a different area that was even in worse shape. I got very close to this targeted deer on numerous occasions, but never got her--passed up plenty of others in the attempt.

IN THIS CASE---if I were given a high percentage opportunity on <u>my own property</u>, I would feel obligated to put the deer down if I was sure it was going to die or suffer terribly for the rest of it's life. As for the meat and rack--why should it be left to rot even though the circumstances surrounding the harvest are different. Illegal? --probably. Ethical? --DEFINITELY.

Today's small bucks are tomorrow's trophies.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

i remember when i was a kid we were at a state park camping in indiana and we went for a bike ride....we happened upon a small 6 pt buck that could barely walk gimping around next to the road...definately needed put out of its misery. me and my dad went to the rangers station and told them about it. the rangers responds was just let him be. had we done the ethical but illigal thing we'd had to hitch hick back to ohio for lack of funds...LOL

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

Only God should play God!!!

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

Ha! Who is Titliest? New I see. Excited to hear further posts, I am.

RE: A question of ethics as a Human Bowhunter
 

I would have zero problem putting a deer down in or out of season if I thought it was hovering at deaths door, I'd do it in a heartbeat. However, the deer would have to be not able to get up, or be obviously disemboweled or something.

In your case, I would not finish it off. The leg wound, mangled or not is not necessarily life threatening (you saw it, I didn't - you may decide different). Deer are amazing survivalists, and my money would be on the deer, if it can avoid infection. Once I harvested a buck with a broadhead completley through one side of the pelvis, from the year before. This year, a messed up rack buck was taken on the property that had a broadhead embedded in and through the shoulder blade from the year before. In both cases, I'm sure a couple weeks after their injury - they would have seemed on deaths door - but they both made it.

While video-taping deer coming into the corn last week (season is over - 3 weeks here) I video taped a deer come in on three legs, the hind leg on its right side was swollen the size of a melon at the knee joint. I did not have a gun with me, but considered that if I had, would I have shot it, the answer would have been no.

Life can be cruel for animals. It is difficult NOT to inject human thoughts of suffering, or pain to the deer we wholeheartedly enjoy, but we must not. Life should go on for your deer - even if its only until coyotes pull it down. If you come upon the deer at a later date, and its alive, but cannot get up, then in my opinion you have the right, maybe you are even obliged to end its life. However, as long as it can get around, I feel it would be wrong for you to illegally take the animal's life. Now if you had a tag, the decision would be a whole lot easier - wouldn't it.