Center the Pin Guard in the Peep?
06-22-2007, 07:40 AM
#62
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 21,043
RE: Center the Pin Guard in the Peep?
Well, GMMAT, since you don't know anything about field archery, there's no basis for you to understand what I'm trying to say.
And wait a danged minute.....you've never even TRIED to do what we're talking about??? You know....I'm not sure you fully understand what we're even talking about (yes...I've done it 'your way'). I DO NOT "center a round pin guard" in my peep. I'm telling you.....and imagine this.....when I come to full draw...and look through my peep....it aligns PERFECTLY with my pin guard (making the pin guard 'disappear'). If I SEE the pin guard....I know I'm not PERFECTLY aligned. When I see NO PIN GUARD......I put the pin on my intended target......and I hit what my pin's on.
I really am not sure you grasp this.
And again....I don't give a rat's ass how YOU do it. Just don't tell me my way is my mind playing smoke and mirror tricks on me (especially if you've never even tried it!).
06-22-2007, 07:50 AM
#63
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Center the Pin Guard in the Peep?
I can't imagine the pressure of nationals being that much different from the pressure of state or sectional tournaments, Rick. Just more days of it. [&:]
As for shooting that particular course on that particular day in those particular weather conditions... Comparing my average scores - shot in a wide variety of weather conditions on courses with greatly varying types of terrain - to the average national tourney scores over a span of years sort of balances that out. At the very least, it puts an orange tint on those apples.
But there you have stuck your finger on the point I am making. If centering the pin guard does make a measureable difference in consistency, then that measurable difference would HAVE to show up in average tournament scores. And it hasn't! Even in IBO, where they've been cutting shooting distances shorter and shorter over the past decade, the average scores are NOT improving.
It's just something that's gotten my attention over the past few years.
Yes, GMMAT, I grasp the concept. OF COURSE I've tried it. Tournament shooters try all new techniques that come along, to see we can squeeze another few points out of a course. I rejected it.
As for shooting that particular course on that particular day in those particular weather conditions... Comparing my average scores - shot in a wide variety of weather conditions on courses with greatly varying types of terrain - to the average national tourney scores over a span of years sort of balances that out. At the very least, it puts an orange tint on those apples.
But there you have stuck your finger on the point I am making. If centering the pin guard does make a measureable difference in consistency, then that measurable difference would HAVE to show up in average tournament scores. And it hasn't! Even in IBO, where they've been cutting shooting distances shorter and shorter over the past decade, the average scores are NOT improving.
It's just something that's gotten my attention over the past few years.
Yes, GMMAT, I grasp the concept. OF COURSE I've tried it. Tournament shooters try all new techniques that come along, to see we can squeeze another few points out of a course. I rejected it.
06-22-2007, 07:58 AM
#64
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Posts: 2,981
RE: Center the Pin Guard in the Peep?
i'm going to really have to think about this when i get my pins out for hunting. i know i set up so the aperture has a small gap around it thru the peep in full draw position- but once the shot starts - i have no idea what i'm doing - because i'm not looking at the pin, i'm looking at where i'm going to hit and letting the pin sit in front of it (when i don't peek.)i wouldn't be surprised if that's what i'll do w/ the pins (center them subconsciously) since i shoot a single pin most of the year.
06-22-2007, 08:41 AM
#65
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: Center the Pin Guard in the Peep?
I have never used a setup as was mentioned (round pin guard/ peep alignment with multiple pins) so take my opinion FWIW. I'm just trying to picture the geometry of the shot from the eye, peep, pin guard and field of view. I'm also trying to picture the form used and the basic "t" stance whichissomething to be sought after andduplicated whether the shot is 10 yards, 80 yards, downhill, or uphill.
Although the field of view would be limited as the pins get close to the upper limit or lower limit of the pin guard (could hamper seeing the target well) in not centering with the peep, I would think that there would be an inconsistancy in phsyical form if the upper and lower (not centered) pin were brought to the center of the peep for aiming whether that be from dropping or raising the bow bow arm.
Not to say that there maybe a tendency to center the aiming pin.
Although the field of view would be limited as the pins get close to the upper limit or lower limit of the pin guard (could hamper seeing the target well) in not centering with the peep, I would think that there would be an inconsistancy in phsyical form if the upper and lower (not centered) pin were brought to the center of the peep for aiming whether that be from dropping or raising the bow bow arm.
Not to say that there maybe a tendency to center the aiming pin.
06-22-2007, 10:30 AM
#67
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2
RE: Center the Pin Guard in the Peep?
I agree with one thing that was said.My friends shoot a single moveable pin on their bows.I tried it on mine and didn't like it for a few reasons.On the 3d course I noticed that if I moved the pin from 20 to 40 or 50 yds I had to anchor in a different place on my face to keep the pin centered in the peep.That's reason enough for me not to shoot that system.I fare well with the round pin guard and fixed pins for hunting and 3d.Anchor point always stays the same and I don't have to worry about ajusting my single pin on farther out shots on deer.I always anchor the pin guard in the center of the peep then look at the pins.
06-22-2007, 11:50 AM
#68
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location:
Posts: 1,438
RE: Center the Pin Guard in the Peep?
I'm like Chucker,
I never really thought about this. Reading all this crap was a heavy cross to bare though. [:-] Come to think of it my work must be super boring.
Anyway, I fall into Len's category of the basic hunter archer. All I've been doing is making sure my grip and stance are correct, making sure I have a smooth draw (minimizing movement), hitting my anchor point, looking through the peep, finding the right pin, breathing steadily, and taking the shot.
I don't think about or center my sight ring, nor do I look at the level bubble (that just seems like a big distraction to me and wouldn't tell me more than I already know). I don't think I'm going to start now, it's just an extra, unecessary step.
I never really thought about this. Reading all this crap was a heavy cross to bare though. [:-] Come to think of it my work must be super boring.
Anyway, I fall into Len's category of the basic hunter archer. All I've been doing is making sure my grip and stance are correct, making sure I have a smooth draw (minimizing movement), hitting my anchor point, looking through the peep, finding the right pin, breathing steadily, and taking the shot.
I don't think about or center my sight ring, nor do I look at the level bubble (that just seems like a big distraction to me and wouldn't tell me more than I already know). I don't think I'm going to start now, it's just an extra, unecessary step.
06-22-2007, 07:11 PM
#69
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 312
RE: Center the Pin Guard in the Peep?
I agree with Len on this one.
One thing that all archers need to aim better is the ability to see. Most of us see better with more light, at least up to a point.
It's easier for most archers to centera large scope ring in a large peep than it is to center a small pin in a small peep.
When you have a larger peep aperture, there is more light coming in to the eye, hence we are able to see ther targetbetter.
I find that I can aim better if I can see my target clearly and for my old eyes that requires light.
Arthur, you obviously know a lot about archery, but I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
Also, tournement scores have been going up over the last few years. Did you see the crowd at the Vegas shoot offthis year? And the 27 arrow shootoff at Louiville last year? I don't attribute itto round scope rings, but they don't hurt scores.
Good topic to stir everyone up!
Allen
One thing that all archers need to aim better is the ability to see. Most of us see better with more light, at least up to a point.
It's easier for most archers to centera large scope ring in a large peep than it is to center a small pin in a small peep.
When you have a larger peep aperture, there is more light coming in to the eye, hence we are able to see ther targetbetter.
I find that I can aim better if I can see my target clearly and for my old eyes that requires light.
Arthur, you obviously know a lot about archery, but I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
Also, tournement scores have been going up over the last few years. Did you see the crowd at the Vegas shoot offthis year? And the 27 arrow shootoff at Louiville last year? I don't attribute itto round scope rings, but they don't hurt scores.
Good topic to stir everyone up!
Allen
06-22-2007, 09:17 PM
#70
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Center the Pin Guard in the Peep?
Arthur P:
I think we've established that your way was/is an acceptable way. As was previously stated, you really haven't tried the 'new' way. Why would all the sight manufacturers now be using round pin guards if it wasn't widely accepted. Why would it be widely accepted if it didn't have benefits over older methods?
Now, if you are willing to try the newer methods, I'd be willing to assist you in this development in your life.
Just jump on a plane from D/FW to Baltimore. I'll gladly pick you up at the airport since it's only a few miles away. Heck, I will even spring for lunch or dinner. I can imagine we'd have a lot to talk about since we're both statutory members of the COF Club.
There are many of my customers who've been converted from the old style to the new style using the round pin guards/larger peepsto establish better anchor points. It allows them to get on the sight quicker, maintain better form, and execute the shot with more accuracy under low-light conditions. I have never seen someone 'converted' want to go back to the 'old' way of shooting.
It is a process/technique that I teach and, if taught properly, yields great results. And seriously, I would like to see you try it in the right way. If you have any questions, pleasedo not hesitate to call me.
I think we've established that your way was/is an acceptable way. As was previously stated, you really haven't tried the 'new' way. Why would all the sight manufacturers now be using round pin guards if it wasn't widely accepted. Why would it be widely accepted if it didn't have benefits over older methods?
Now, if you are willing to try the newer methods, I'd be willing to assist you in this development in your life.
Just jump on a plane from D/FW to Baltimore. I'll gladly pick you up at the airport since it's only a few miles away. Heck, I will even spring for lunch or dinner. I can imagine we'd have a lot to talk about since we're both statutory members of the COF Club.There are many of my customers who've been converted from the old style to the new style using the round pin guards/larger peepsto establish better anchor points. It allows them to get on the sight quicker, maintain better form, and execute the shot with more accuracy under low-light conditions. I have never seen someone 'converted' want to go back to the 'old' way of shooting.
It is a process/technique that I teach and, if taught properly, yields great results. And seriously, I would like to see you try it in the right way. If you have any questions, pleasedo not hesitate to call me.