RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Several
And thats the part most people don't under stand every area is different. Proper timber management , good water & a constant food source are all needed to maintain deer .
Here in PA we have a huge state that has a server deer problem in the metro areas ,so the states answer to this city problem is to kill all the does in the state,or at least as many as hunters could find to kill.
Now we have areas with a non hunt able numbers of deer and the cities are still brimming with them.
Their management goals managed to piss off just about everyone.Metros are still over run and the woods are void. All because of a one size fits all system.
I refuse to fall victim to the "A good doe is a dead doe theory" Proper land management is far more important .
But the "I have to have a new bow "clan will tell you they can't afford to buy land to hunt .

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

The thing that QDMA can do more of is to continue to work hard to get their message out there.I am a member of a young chapter and all the members bar none are people who are concerned about whitetail deer,and not just killing them or hoping to kill bigger deer.I see absolutely no downside to the implementation of a QDMA philosophy.Habitat first,the animal second,the hunter last.
The controversy always comes about hunters wanting to shoot larger bucks.,as if there is something wrong with that!Iguarantee that if many of the anti QDMA proponents were to hunt for a few seasons where either the natural aspects of an area created a more ideal herd balance,or in states where their management lead to better herd balance,their opinions would change!
The thing that Fran (Quicksilver) touched on is real though,access will tighten up to private land with the success of QDMA,in conjunction with implementation of QDMA there should be efforts made to ensure everyone who wishes to has plenty of area's to hunt.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

What you are describing is QDM to a tee;) Some think QDM is all about shooting does and it is not. In some cases it is a part of QDM, in some cases it is not.

No where does QDM state "A good doe is a dead doe" Which is kind of my point;)

I agree 100% there is not a 1 piece fits all to your state or mine:)

The book "Deer Wars" was about your state I would love to hear your views on it.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Rob/PA lives in (duh) PA.....and he has to aply for a doe tag (he is issued one tag with his license, I "think"). How is this promoting shooting every doe?

I'm just trying to understand, really.

If I see 326 deer, from stand in one year.....and less than 50 of them are bucks....it likely says a lot of things:

1) it likely says that does are more likely to let themselves be seen
2) it likely says there are too many deer in the woods I hunt
3) it likely says I'm seeing a lot of the deer over and over again
but
4) it likely means I have WAY TOO MANY DOES

The key to keeping a species from reproducing is to make them infertile or to extinguish them. it's cheaper to extinguish them.....which, for our purposes, equates to hunting them.

You can't take YOUR circumstances and apply them to mine, either. It works both ways.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

GMMAT
yes doe tags are alloted based on units(which are too big)
For the VAST majority of the state, you get one doe tag. A few places get 2, then the suburbs get unlimited.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Rybo is it just like MI in PA

Buy a doe permit for a unit it can only be used in that unit.
I buy a tag for DMU 52 I can only use it in DMU 52?

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Sounds to me like they're assessing the situation correctly, rybo.

Sounds to me like NC is, too. I can shoot ALL I CAN (Unlimited), as long as I do so on private lands. If there's arule like this in place......my thinking is...there's a darned good reason for it. For me....it's NEEDED.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

This is VA's answer...

No more than 3 bucks, but up to six doe. Chances are I'll fill five doe tags. Last tag will be held until dark the last day of the season, at which time I will enjoy a nice bowl of...

Bag Limits
East of the Blue Ridge (except on National Forest lands in Amherst, Bedford, and Nelson counties)
The bag limit for deer shall be two a day, six a license year. Of the six deer limit, no more than three may be antlered deer and at least three must be antlerless deer.
West of the Blue Ridge and on National Forest lands in Amherst, Bedford, and Nelson counties
The bag limit for deer shall be one a day and five a license year. Of the five deer limit, no more than two may be antlered deer and at least three must be antlerless deer.
[ul][*]Only one antlered deer may be taken during the early muzzleloading season per muzzleloader hunter.[*]If a hunter kills two antlered deer in Shenandoah County, at least one of the antlered deer must have at least 4 antler points, 1 inch or longer, on one side. [/ul]

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

All you hear from the QDM side is the mantra "Mature Bucks, Mature Bucks, Mature Bucks, ohhhhhhhhhhmmm." They keep repeating it till their eyes glaze over and they Zen out. [8D]

What I don't like about QDM is, when you scrape away all the flowery prose and catch phrases and get down to the nitty gritty bottom line, it's all about trophy hunting. I think trophy hunting is our Achilles Heel when it comes to fighting off attacks from the anti's. Easiest place to attack us and the hardest thing for us to defend.

Really, when you look at harvest stats, the archery harvest is still a small percentage of the gun harvest. Except in isolated areas, bowhunters have very little effect on herd numbers or make up. QDM is something bowhunters don't much need to be concerned with. It certainly doesn't deserve all the attention it's been getting on THIS forum lately.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Well, arthur....again....you can't make blanket statements.

If "I" don't manage the herd I hunt.....they'll be left un-checked. if I don't do it....nobody with a gun CAN. I'd think I'm not alone. If I gun hunted.....I couldn't hunt ANY of the places I do, now.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Yeah, you're probably right - we should just do nothing and see how it plays out... NOT!

I'm raising four future hunters; it's my job to educate them and anyone else I can.

Would someone please pass the antlers, I'm hungry...

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

I would like them it to change it to quality land management.
Land is the key and anyone that fails to see this probably spent much of their youth riding the short bus.[:o]
How many hunters never give thought to buying some land ? I hear all this B.S. about hunting with our kids ,but it seems a new Tahoe for mom is more important than buying a piece of land that could be used by your entire family for generations. Priorities are all wrong. [:'(]

Half these numb nuts don't know the difference between red oakor a white oak and they think a pin oak has needles. But ask em about their Ipodor game boy and they could go on for half a day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)

And I almost forgot the part where it's not about the horns........:D

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Someone isn't a happy person, which means; you sir have failed in life.
Sorry

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

So bawana.....if I owned the land I hunt.....the does would commit suicide, run away....or more buck would move in?

I'm not following you.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Not everyone can afford land. Even those who live in crappy houses, don;t have new trucks, etc etc. Good for those who can afford land, not everyone can.

And while I certainly agree habitat can do wonders for carrying capacity, sometimes it takes a little of both less deer and better habitat to get the land back to good. IMO the DCNR is holding things back by logging so very little of the forests. So when you are left with crappy habitat, you can't have many deer.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Now there is an example of a short bus rider for ya..............


And I imagine you have some reasons to be sorry.. it probably started with your poor reading comprehension. Read the title of this thread again this time slower........................Now did you get it that time?;)

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

And one more thing,
If more people treated public land as if it were there own rather than blasting every living thing on it, then not as many people would be out there "locking up" private land, cause they'd be wasting money. the public land hunting could be good for everyone.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

I've never posted any thing about where you hunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats probably why you didn't get it.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

What we're losing sight of here is that Bawanajim hates everything, probably even his own mother. If the deer program was geared toward growing more shrubbery and habitat, he'd complain because there were too many shrubberies, and that the deer were gorging themselves to death.

If the program grew deer with 300" racks, he'd cry because they were unhealthy, and whine about how a big rack does not necessarily equal a healthy deer.

If the program brought the buck/doe ratio to 1:1, he'd cry because the doe holocaust was decimating the deer populations into extinction.

Have a Kleenex Jim.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

But you did say.....

No comment on the bus thing....but I'm wondering how owning land changes overpopulation and the need for QDMA type principles.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

No it's our own, LOL Do you really think a non-hunter really cares what we shoot;) It is us who make it an issue IMO.
Just like fences and everything else we bicker about.;)

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

I did NOT make a blanket statement, GMMAT. You just didn't read carefully enough to note the mention of 'isolated areas.' Unless the land you're hunting is high fenced to keep those deer on the property, or unless you are in a suburban environment where guns are not allowed, (two examples of what I meant by isolated areas) SOMEONE is going to be gun hunting those deer.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Now that is funny!

And remember jim, put your helmet on before you get on the bus....

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

A bunch of post back you were saying the areas you hunt are bow only and I would guess this is because of houses. People live in those houses, deer used to live in the woods where the house are now.
If you preserve land thru ownership you will be better protecting thathabitat than landscapers do.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

I'm selling my land to a develper. I'm going to use the money to fund some QDM research...

Man I feel great!

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

bawanajim

You need a hug, LOL

This about dislikes of QDMA or QDM guys not each other;) Lets try and stay focused.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

The you'd only be partially right. Of the land I hunt.....There are 2 homes on the properties. I get to bowhunt the properties because I bow hunt. It's completely legal to hunt them with a gun in these woods. When I set up my stand in my honey hole.....there's a house 300 yds behind me.....and 500 acres of land with NO DWELLINGS in front of me.

THE issueI face with the deer overpopulation is.....not enough people killing them. My biologist told me to take 18 does out of the herd this year. THIS year.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

If I make them just a little happier then its been a good day ..I mean think about it .How would you like being aboy and going through life with a name like Francis??;)

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Thats great have a bang up time of it .
You will get to spend far more time in a tree than I will because I will have one buck tag and one doe tag.I will use mine wisely and I hope you will too.
How long till the 500 acers is developed?

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Okay. The way I read this is, you don't own the land. Yet you get a biologist to come out and assess the deer herd? I'm sure that wasn't a free service. You're spending your time, effort and money to build up the deer herd, but for whom? THE LANDOWNER.

What happens when you get everything set up right and start seeing some good, mature deer with decent racks? SOMEBODY is going to notice. That somebody is going to tell somebody else and so on until word gets to someone with deep pockets. He'll come along and pay the landowner a goodly sum of cash that YOU won't be able to match.

Someone is going to be hunting the deer you cultivated and YOU are going to be out in the cold with no place to hunt. I've seen it in Texas, over and over and over again. I've seen it enough to know for a fact that practicing QDM on land you don't own is a fool's errand.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Hard to say. It belongs to the county (majority of it)....and it has since my wife was a child (she's 41). It's part of a parks system (about 25 acres of the 270, there is cleared). The rest is 2 private farms that have been private farms since my father in law bought his home (when my wife was a little girl, also).

If the county does something with this land......I'll buy or lease land. Right now....it's like having a brother with a pool ;).

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

This simplifies to an optimist and a pessimist deal.
QDMers(optimists) look to try and make the best of the situation dealt.
Anti QDMers(pessimists) come up with every lame idea why it won't work and are angry at the world for the situation that is dealt.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Sounds like with luck like yours I'd be buying power ball tickets. Have a good one.
jim

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

And I've seen $10M deals executed on a handshake.

Don't pretend to know MY circumstances. My landowner despises hunting. he's never killed an animal in his life....and he's a retired electrical engineer.He has a relationship with me. I'm a good steward of his land.....and he recognizes the fact that we're friends. If he needed the money....he'd have taken the money I offer to pay him for the priviledge of hunting his property. I tell everyone....he don't have a CLUE what I'd be willing to pay ;). If the time arises when he thinks about selling it.....we've already talked about that possibility.

Your scenario may play out in others' circumstances, but I'm betting there are PLENTY of people who have circumstances just like me. Rob/PA is one of them.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Thanks, Jim. And my brother DOES have that pool.;)

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Overall I think QDM is a good thing and would like to see more hunters practice it but do not get carried away with it. About 4 years ago I decided to make a commitment to killing bigger bucks and I tried to push my views onto my son. Luckily I finally realized I was taking the fun out of it for him and told him to whack whatever makes him happy.

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

"Game Commission, can I help you?"

"QDM is stupid. Yayyyy!"

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

LOL!

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

Like others have said, its not about less deer for every area. It varies.

Maybe if I give you the situations in the 2 main areas I hunt you will be able to understand what a quality herd is.

#1 My family owns 480 acres in WI. While I was growing upI was taught that more deer is better. We didn't shoot many does, our DNR didn't give out many tags then. But we did shoot nearly every buck we saw. As the '90s went by the deer population started growing rapidly on our land. By the late '90s we would see many does and very few bucks.

HMMMMMM, our buck to doe ratio was getting out of wack and I started seeing the light of a quality deer herd. It wasn't about more deer, it was about being able to support the deer we could. We couldn't. The deer were getting smaller bodies and we started seeing a lot of very small fawns. (I hope I don't have to explain that one)

We had two options as hunters and game managers.1. continuedown our misguided path. 2. start to care about the game we hunted.

We chose the latter and started shooting more does and a lot less bucks. Since 2001 I have only shot 2bucks in WI and 12 does.My family has done the same.Last year onour trail cameraswe finally saw the buck to doe ratio nearing 2:1.

It wasn't about hunting for this year, it was about quality hunting into the next decade. And I'm not talking about rack size, though it is nice. ;)


#2 Canada. I have about 200sq miles that I am able to hunt up here. Within that there is an area that is about 40sq miles that no one was ever able to hunt until 2004. Since then it has only been my family and I hunting there. No one else.

This is an area that has no ag fields for over 100 miles and is completely untouched by man. Heck, most of these deer probably never saw a person until we hunted them.

The buck to doe ratio there is probably 1.5:1. Completely natural,no one has been able to screw it up by years of poor management and shooting only bucks. QDM in its purest form, if you will.


I will admit, I have been very fortunate to see a deer herd like very few have. Completely natural and wild. And I have seen the other side of the coin, a deer herd out of control and out of wack, beacuse of poor management. That's why I have to laugh when people continue to argue with the principals of QDM. They are uninformed and severly misguided from generations of poor game managers.



I forgot to add, its not JUST about the horns. ;)

RE: QDMA What don't you like
 

And likewise, bro, you said it yourself, your situation is pretty unique. There's a big world outside your little neck of the woods, and it gets pretty darn mean in places. I'm unfortunate in that I live in one of the mean places. I know dozens of hunters that have lost long term leases and even had close friendships destroyed because they weren't able to come up with as much money as someone else offered.

Underneath the coat of whitewash, QDM has a really ugly underbelly.