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RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: Germ ORIGINAL: LebeauHunter Germ, I still don't think being stressed out would affect the genetics (which are basically DNA imbedded in the swimmers). I thought that there were 3 basic things wrong with too many does: (1) Too many deer = overpopulated, not enough food, etc. (2) Rut not as good = too many does to chase, don't need to travel as far, and (3) Hope I say this clearly: In a well balanced ratio, often only those bucks that are dominant and genetically superior will get a chance to breed because they will push the genetically inferior or smaller (whatever the age) deer out of the way. But, if there is a 2:1 doe to buck ratio all of the bucks will get to breed (including genetically inferior ones). So, while a 1.5 year old buck might have some stud genes, the other non-dominant, inferior 1.5 bucks are still getting a piece of the action. So the overall gene pool could be lowered in that way. Does that third point make sense? Are we all saying the same thing? Sorry PT I just get nervous talking about sex with a Preacher;) This is great info ... Makes sense if peeps are not harvesting sufficient does .... thinking about predation outside of man, the older healthier bucks are the ones that usually survive, as predators target the weak and sick ........ man I love this stuff .... thanks for the info guys ..... I think this is the first "civil" conversation that I have seen on threads of this topic ..... KP ... good moderation ;) |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
PT some have a theory on this
thinking about predation outside of man, the older healthier bucks are the ones that usually survive, as predators target the weak and sick Like I said this is theory of some |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Sorry PT I just get nervous talking about sex with a Preacher;) On the breeding thing, I think we would all agree that it is not the genes of the younger bucks, but the lack of competition for does that leads to those "inferior" genes getting passed on. I've read some very interesting things lately about genetics and which deer are doing the majority of the breeding and culling bucks from the herd. What was found was that with a reasonable buck to doe ratio (i.e. 1:3-1:4) which can be realisitcally achieved and maintained in a wild herd that 2.5-3.5 year old deer do the majority of the breeding. Deer older than this do not chase as much so their breeding goes down, and the younger bucks take what they can get. The study also said that to truly determine if a buck is a "cull" buck you have to let him reach and age of 4.5-6.5 at which point he has already done the majority of his breeding. So, in essence it is impossible to affect the genetics of a herd through harvesting bucks. The only way to ensure that the stronger deer's genes are passed on is to bring the buck to doe ratio into balance and allow competition for breeding rights to manage the rest as nature intended. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Huntinbry that is intersting.
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: PreacherTony Correct me if I'm wrong, and I vry well might be, but doesn't true DEER management come from the taking out of does in a herd??? Now I am talking about healthy deer, not necessarily massive bucks....... Be gentle guys, I am just asking .... educate me ..... Same way with turkeys. When there are a ton of hens, the gobblers are busy. Hard to call in. We do not have an starving deer around here, but we have way too many does to bucks. IMO. Just from what I understand. It does make sense. So if the ratio is out of whack, kill them skinheads. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
I sense some confusion about the way genetics works. The genes of an animal do not change as they age. That's determined in the DNA during the moment of conception. So the genes of a given buck do not "improve" as that buck ages. Every living creature on this earth has the same DNA (genes) from the moment it is concieved until the day it dies.
I really hate it when somebody preaches QDM to me and tells me that young bucks have "inferior genes"..... I quit listening to everything that person says after that.... |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: Germ ORIGINAL: PreacherTony ORIGINAL: gzg38b If I shoot a 1.5 year old buck, that means I DIDN'T shoot the 3.5 year old buck that could be in the same area. So that 3.5 year old buck will be 4.5 next year and will be even bigger! So by shooting the 1.5 year old buck, I have ensured that there will be an ABSOLUTE MONSTER in my area next year. This is how I support QDM. Prime example is look where all the records came from 40 or 50 years ago. It was Northen LP and UP. Since we have installed baiting and the mulligan buck tag system the deer are getting smaller in those areas. We have really hurtour herd in Northen LP and UP. If we only had one buck tag, I'm sure most hunters would be alot more selective. Guys might actually think twice about popping that little forkhorn under their treestand in October. If we only had one buck tag, we'd all see more bucks and we'd have more mature bucks in the herd. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: gzg38b I sense some confusion about the way genetics works. The genes of an animal do not change as they age. That's determined in the DNA during the moment of conception. So the genes of a given buck do not "improve" as that buck ages. Every living creature on this earth has the same DNA (genes) from the moment it is concieved until the day it dies. I really hate it when somebody preaches QDM to me and tells me that young bucks have "inferior genes"..... I quit listening to everything that person says after that.... What happens when a deer breeds under stress? I do not know and I have found no data on it. Just look atour state(MI). Why are UP deer smaller in size than Canadian deer? What happen? I have 7 mounts from my uncle 140 and above deer all from the UP shot in the 50 and 60's. What happen to the sized of the deer. The climate is close to parts of Canada why are the deer so much smaller in body weight. Why didmy unclehead to the U.P. for 7 hours when I shoot bigger deer out his backdoor? How far has UP and Northen MI fallen? It is happing in Southern MI now, just wait if we keep the same deer management policy in time Southern MI will look like U.P. and Northen LP. Now that the bulk of hunters are in Southern MI Is it not possible for a health deer to pass along bad genes? It happens in humans correct? Does breeding under stress up the % of passing along bad genes? Again I do not know I am asking. BTW not one person said QDM, we were just learning from each other. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Allright Germ,
Of course we are all now on the same page about the fact that a deer's genetic makeup is set at birth, but you are definitely on to something with the stress thing. I've been reading up and found the following from Deer Management 101 (Grant Woods): "Suppressing sexual behavior can help young, subordinate bucks grow larger. Because their desire to breed is reduced, they spend less time participating in rutting activities like chasing, fighting and rut-marking. Instead of using valuable body resources during the rut, young bucks spend the fall feeding. Hence, they can put on additional weight and antler growth the following spring instead of replacing resources lost during the rut. . . . Young bucks receiving this growth opportunity have a much better chance of becoming larger bucks at maturity and more capble of becoming dominant." The book goes on to compare a malnourished kid in a third world country to a farm kid from Nebraska. Who knows what the genetic potential of the third world kid is? The idea I was talking about that an imbalanced buck doe ratio can have on genetics (as opposed to deer not realizing their genetic potential) is also discussed: "In a healthy, balanced herd, most large, agressive bucks that attain dominant status have favorable genes. Apparently, resistance to disease (health), large body size, and an aggressive nature are usually 'good characteristics favored by natural selcection. By breeding most of the does, these dominant bucks pass along their 'good' genetic traits." This is a large post, but just wanted to see if we could come to some agreement on this stuff. There are a lot of good reasons to kill does and pass on small bucks, and the ones above are just a few. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
LebeauHunter
That is exactly what i was trying to say thank you!!! I am going to get that book. Sorry for the confusion, your anaolgy was perfect about the Kids and what i was string to say. Thank you for being patient with me, I am from MI[8D] |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Germ,
Waddya know, I actually learned something between all these posts. That's what its supposed to all be about, right? The book is very technical and scientific, but interesting. Please don't credit me with the kid analogy, that is in the book. I just got tired of typing. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Waddya know, I actually learned something between all these posts. That's what its supposed to all be about, right? |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
I agree! I don't shoot youngbucks either anymore, but I did get started shooting every deer that walkedinto my setupand my heart was pounding just as hard! I believe it is in the eye of the beholder, and big bucks are what I am in pursuit of, and although I wish others would practice passing young bucks but I do not degrade anyone's buck, old or young as long as they got the fever!
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: LebeauHunter Allright Germ, Of course we are all now on the same page about the fact that a deer's genetic makeup is set at birth, but you are definitely on to something with the stress thing. I've been reading up and found the following from Deer Management 101 (Grant Woods): "Suppressing sexual behavior can help young, subordinate bucks grow larger. Because their desire to breed is reduced, they spend less time participating in rutting activities like chasing, fighting and rut-marking. Instead of using valuable body resources during the rut, young bucks spend the fall feeding. Hence, they can put on additional weight and antler growth the following spring instead of replacing resources lost during the rut. . . . Young bucks receiving this growth opportunity have a much better chance of becoming larger bucks at maturity and more capble of becoming dominant." The book goes on to compare a malnourished kid in a third world country to a farm kid from Nebraska. Who knows what the genetic potential of the third world kid is? The idea I was talking about that an imbalanced buck doe ratio can have on genetics (as opposed to deer not realizing their genetic potential) is also discussed: "In a healthy, balanced herd, most large, agressive bucks that attain dominant status have favorable genes. Apparently, resistance to disease (health), large body size, and an aggressive nature are usually 'good characteristics favored by natural selcection. By breeding most of the does, these dominant bucks pass along their 'good' genetic traits." This is a large post, but just wanted to see if we could come to some agreement on this stuff. There are a lot of good reasons to kill does and pass on small bucks, and the ones above are just a few. Bone mass has not changed much. Eat plenty with a healthy carrying capacity for the household. I agree. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
I wont shoot a young buck...
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
Apparently, resistance to disease (health), large body size, and an aggressive nature are usually 'good characteristics favored by natural selcection. By breeding most of the does, these dominant bucks pass along their 'good' genetic traits |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
HuntingBry,
Not gonna argue too much over someone else's work, but this is just one small quote from the whole book (and it does say "most"). I don't think the author says that only the best bucks will pass on their genes, but that over time with a well balanced deer herd, a greater percentage of genetically superior bucks will be doing the breeding (its a fairly gradual process, not 1 or 2 years). Of course, the non-studs will get lucky every now and then (but won't be bedding down with 9 does). |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Perception of Good Genetics.
Is good genetics large antlers or body strengthand endurence? I have seen film of a smaller rack buck whipping the tar out of a rack bruiser. May have been the age thing. Over time the body strength traits will be the survivors. Good topic anddiscussion. Bottom line is they have to get some age. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
I think many confuse QDM with big bucks. From what I understand (and I am certainly not an expert) it is more about age structure and buck to doe ratio. Big bucks are just a natural by product. I know here in Oklahoma are harvest of bucks average 1.5 years old and we have way too many does running around. Therefore mostly what you see when you go hunting is a bunch of little knotheads.
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
Good point Okiaros,
QDMA is not about the racks, it is about restoring deer herds to a 2-1 doe buck ratio or better. 1-1 is best, but often impossible, and as QDMA seeks to balance hunter satisfaction, 2-1 or better is the goal. If you aren't shooting every buck you see and passing on every doe you see (as a lot of people were taught to hunt) it will change your deer herd for the better - as you said better age and social structure. That in turn will probably lead to more mature age bucks who happen to have bigger racks. It does not change the genetics of your herd, but works to maximize the genetic potential of your herd. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: Okiaroslinger I think many confuse QDM with big bucks. From what I understand (and I am certainly not an expert) it is more about age structure and buck to doe ratio. Big bucks are just a natural by product. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: IL-Cornfed ORIGINAL: Okiaroslinger I think many confuse QDM with big bucks. From what I understand (and I am certainly not an expert) it is more about age structure and buck to doe ratio. Big bucks are just a natural by product. Fear of not seeing any deer:) It is easier to hunt an over populated herd, and hunters like to see deer when they hunt. Reduce the size of their herd they will see less deer. Not about killing deer, but seeing deer IMO |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Germ,
Based on my reading, QDMA acknowledges the hunter satisfaction aspect, particularly that a perferctly 1-1 balanced herd at the optimum carrying point for the land (depends on habitat) would probably hold too few deer to keep most hunter's interest. We don't do all this work and preparation to sit on stands all day and never see any deer! So QDMA typically calls for slightly more deer per area than the optimum level (which doesn't have much of a negative effect on the deer herd), and only adopts a 2-1 ratio as a goal. It's not an exact science, but with the hunter's trigger finger - passing on immature bucks and taking out some does, the structure of the herd will slowly change to a more natural, quality herd. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
If I were a doe deerand lived in the woods I hunt......I would be very afraid.
I have NO ISSUES reducing the herd numbers (at the risk of seeing fewer deer);). As long as it doesn't have spots.....or have one with spots in tow......It's "at risk". I could shoot 4 or 14. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
yes I know, but that is not what theyhear. They hear less deer and trophy;)
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
If it's a legal buck, I'm killin the sucker. I don't care how old he is.
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
And you should!!
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
Bottom Line: I will shoot any deer I want to, at anytime, as long as it's legal.
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
mobowhuntr,
Trust me I understand your buck frustrations, but most places that have adopted QDMA you don't get a choice. If you want to hunt there you have to abide by the rules, legal buck or not. I guess that's another reason people don't like QDMA, because many clubs/properties have adopted it and now even though the deer is "legal," they can't shoot it. We actually lowered the bow mininimum to 2.5 year old 6 point just because of the hunter satisfaction issue (and b/c we have not had enough success with the bow). After one 6 point kill with bow it goes back to 8 point (and hopefully 3.5 year olds). QDMA is more of a philosophy, and treating it like some wooden rules can sometimes lead to irritated hunters. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
It's good that more and more people are trying to institute these plans on their own because state wide attempts usually do not work well. PA is a perfect example of this. They tried to reduce the doe population with wildlife management units (WMUs) and increasing the number of antlerless license allocations. What has happened is the WMUs were made too large and as a result does were slaughtered in some areas and are still vastly overpopulated in others.
One state that did a very good job was NJ. They have fairly small WMUs or zones and actually have different seasons and bag limits depending on the zone you are in. Combine that with selective antler restrictions and the earn-a-buck program and the quality of the herd in that state has improved dramatically over the last 7 years. Other states and groups could learn from their example. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
HuntingBry,
Amen. Individual efforts and responsibility are always better than the nanny state sticking its head in and sometimes producing unintended consequences. If individuals can learn to adopt these ideas (voluntarily), it might actually prevent the intrusion of the state and more severe hunting restrictions. Not everyone needs to or will do it, but if enough people do it (which is starting to occur), the deer herds will be better quality and there will be less social conflict with deer (too many does eating gardens, causing accidents, etc.). Goes back to Genesis - be a good steward of your natural resources. |
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