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RE: Shooting young bucks?
I think that would be a very interesting experiment. I'd be in. It might make someone think twice when they say "I'm only shooting 140" or better" and they get the itchy trigger finger when that basket 8 comes walking by at 8 yards begging to catch an arrow.
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
If Im rack hunting then I set my standards according to what bucks Ive been seeing during pre season glassing and on my trail cams. So to answer the question simply, no I will usually pass on young bucks during a normal bow hunting situation.
If I'm meat hunting,and I see a nice doe, first one close enough goes in the freezer. There are way to many does where I hunt so I have no reason or needto shoot young bucks. I hunt deer the way I want to hunt deer as everyone should. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: HuntingBry I think that would be a very interesting experiment. I'd be in. It might make someone think twice when they say "I'm only shooting 140" or better" and they get the itchy trigger finger when that basket 8 comes walking by at 8 yards begging to catch an arrow. It is true, depends on the sightings and the areas potential. I bet a guy in Alabama ina national forest would wack a 110-120 in a heartbeat. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: buttonbuckmaster If you don't shoot them....someone else will.  :D
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
I don't trophy hunt, so if it looks worth the drag and would put a good dent in the freezer space it's going down. People like me are the biggest reason why QDM is stupid at best, you can't practice it unless everybody else does, and I never will.
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
I thought this post was about young bucks, not score. The two can vary from place to place a lot depending on nutrition and genetics. Just thought I would throw that out there.
Time to pop another bag of corn. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: kevin1 I don't trophy hunt, so if it looks worth the drag and would put a good dent in the freezer space it's going down. People like me are the biggest reason why QDM is stupid at best, you can't practice it unless everybody else does, and I never will. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
This topic has been kicked around for way too long. Shoot what makes you happy but you can't cry about not seeing any big bucks if you shoot the smaller ones and for the people that think there are no big deer in there woods (what made the small bucks)? Immaculate Conception.
8 years ago I felt that way, now I know what I have in my woods and I don't think the deer population has changed that much over the eight years. They are there you just have to find them. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
I do not have a problem with someone whacking whatever buck makes them happy. Unless they are on a lease that is managed and it should meet a minimum. We had a big problem with this last year with guys whacking 1 1/2 basket racks when there is a 8 point spread as wide as the ears rule. I had one guy try to justify his kill by telling me a 90 lb 7 point was a 5 year old cull buck.
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
Okiaroslinger,
Heh, with an 8 point rule my lil brother shot a 4 point "cull buck" too, or at least that was his response when we got there to pick it up and gave him some really dirty looks. See, the antlers weren't perfectly matching. :D I did shoot a 2.5 year old buck with 4 or 5 points that was truly a cull buck. Someone had shot him in the leg the year prior and due to the massive calcification he only had one small crooked spike on one side. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: gutshot101 wonderful point-- i was just re-reading this and it seems alot of us are thinking a 3 year old deer is fully mature. and who am i to say he isnt. but i do know that same deer on minerals and feed supplements will growalot in a given year and at 4 or 5yrs will have alot larger rack than he would have had with no supplements. i have a 145 incher that was aged at 2.5 years want pics? The main issue with letting a 3 y.o that is a good buck walk is the simple fact that someone else will shoot it. Its not that I care about being the one who shoots it...I haven't shot a buck in 4 years...but I have also never shot a buck that didn't go on the wall...and my smallest deer was 127 and change..and I was 11 when I shot him. If someone wants to shoot him....good for them....but there is no point in spending money on minerals and food plots in my part of the world, because all you are doing is growing deer for someone else to run off your property illegally with dogs to shoot or poach at night in your back yard. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
I guess all we can do isare best, let a 16 or 17 inch 8 point come by an see what happens I don't care if he is 2 1/2 or 4 1/2 the first part of the season he is going down. Then I will get picky, will not shoot a small5 or 6 not going to happen.
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
If I shoot a 1.5 year old buck, that means I DIDN'T shoot the 3.5 year old buck that could be in the same area. So that 3.5 year old buck will be 4.5 next year and will be even bigger!
So by shooting the 1.5 year old buck, I have ensured that there will be an ABSOLUTE MONSTER in my area next year. This is how I support QDM. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: gzg38b If I shoot a 1.5 year old buck, that means I DIDN'T shoot the 3.5 year old buck that could be in the same area. So that 3.5 year old buck will be 4.5 next year and will be even bigger! So by shooting the 1.5 year old buck, I have ensured that there will be an ABSOLUTE MONSTER in my area next year. This is how I support QDM. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: rybohunter I'm too tired to fight this onenow. A couple 16-17 year olds in the deer section have worn me out. :D |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: PreacherTony ORIGINAL: gzg38b If I shoot a 1.5 year old buck, that means I DIDN'T shoot the 3.5 year old buck that could be in the same area. So that 3.5 year old buck will be 4.5 next year and will be even bigger! So by shooting the 1.5 year old buck, I have ensured that there will be an ABSOLUTE MONSTER in my area next year. This is how I support QDM. Prime example is look where all the records came from 40 or 50 years ago. It was Northen LP and UP. Since we have installed baiting and the mulligan buck tag system the deer are getting smaller in those areas. We have really hurtour herd in Northen LP and UP. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I vry well might be, but doesn't true DEER management come from the taking out of does in a herd??? Now I am talking about healthy deer, not necessarily massive bucks.......
Be gentle guys, I am just asking .... educate me ..... |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Ideal is 1:1 ratio.
Yes shooting does is a good thing. If you are above carry capacity or trying to maintain it. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: Germ Ideal is 1:1 ratio. Yes shooting does is a good thing. If you are above carry capacity or trying to maintain it. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Are we talking buck or doe?
Shooting to many young bucks will not allow for a fun rut. What happens is to many young bucks breed. This cause bad genetic on both sides does and bucks to creep in. Look at states like Iowa they have 50% or below 1.5 buck harvest per year. States like MI isup around 75%. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: Germ Are we talking buck or doe? Shooting to many young bucks will not allow for a fun rut. What happens is to many young bucks breed. This cause bad genetic on both sides does and bucks to creep in. Look at states like Iowa they have 50% or below 1.5 buck harvest per year. States like MI isup around 75%. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
When he breeds at 1.5 is when the issue may occur. They are not ready to breed, but since there are to many does and not enough mature bucks to stop them, well they have at it, lOL
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: Germ When he breeds at 1.5 is when the issue may occur. They are not ready to breed, but since there are to many does and not enough mature bucks to stop them, well they have at it, lOL OK Germ .... that doesn't sound right to me ..... is there science that shows Bobby Buck at 1,5 years old is genetically inferior to what he will be at 3.5 years old?? Again, I don't know...I'm just asking ... |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
He is not, but his "boys" maybe and yes there is evidence.
Then we produce a gentic inferior deer who than breeds, the process keeps repeating.... |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
I'm following you Germ on this too many hoes (sorry, does) thing and the younger bucks getting in on the action. But I would like to see the evidence on the swimmers of a 1.5 year old buck not being genetically up to par with a similar (genetically) deer at 3.5 years? That isn't true for humans and I'm sure some other species, in fact, older sometimes = blanks. [8D]
I thought that the fact that lots of young bucks were breeding was bad is b/c with fewer does it is more likely that only better bucks (those that win out) will be the ones doing most of the breeding. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
This topic has been beaten to death and discussed from every possible perspective so many times.It may be new and fresh for some but it old and tiresome for myself.
If someone has an interest and desire in shooting older bucks from their hunting area's it is extremely unlikely that will occur if they are shooting young bucks in those area's.While it is my wish that more hunters were more selective in what they chose to shoot I respect every hunters rights within the game laws. I look at deer in two way's as meat and as trophies,for meat and herd management I am shooting doe's,for trophy hunting I am pursuing older bucks.In herds that are severely unbalanced shooting young bucks is bothersome to me.I don't understand the logic of passing on doe after doe to kill a 1 1/2 old buck.Meat's the same you are not going to mount the animal so why not do the herd and the carrying capacity of the land some good.(provided you have a doe tag or either sex tag) As long as someone goes about their hunting with integrity and consumes what they kill I am supportive and would provide enthusiastic support and congratulations regardless of the age of the animal they have killed,even if I didn't agree with it!I twould be especially hard for me though if someone filled multiple buck tags with 1 1/2 year old bucks,to me while of course still legal is what I would consider a poor use of our natural resources. I am not looking for agreement or attempting to change anyone's mind it is just the way I feel. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
The way I took it about 1.5 breeding is that thier genetics haven't been realized, so a poor genetic buck could breed just as easy as a stud 1.5 buck. BUT by the time they'd grow up, the stud buck would dominate and do the breeding. Does that sound correct?
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: Germ He is not, but his "boys" maybe and yes there is evidence. Then we produce a gentic inferior deer who than breeds, the process keeps repeating.... |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Any buck to me with my bow is a trophy! Doe, button, spike, fork whatever.
Where I hunt you dont see a whole lot of deer and somtimes and sit on stand for days with out seeing one. Its like fishing. A 3-5lb large mouth is a "nice catch" up here. I went down to Florida and people would say thats a "small one". Dont get me wrong we do grow deer big up here! Hunting is just very different. Hence there is much coverage of our state in hunting mags, shows, and videos. So my long winded response is......If its not at least 9.5 years old I let it walk! Just kidding. If I have a good shot and I am hungry any animal is a trophy! Jim |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Good answer! You are right. In most states including Wi, most deer never see 3.5 years old. The oldest one I shot was a 7 pointer I shot back in 2005, we aged him at 4.5 according to tooth charts.
ORIGINAL: buttonbuckmaster If you don't shoot them....someone else will. :D
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RE: Shooting young bucks?
Hey PT....I think you raise a good question.
In areas where the deer herd IS in fairly good balance.....the consensus (from what I've read) is to take the younger (yearling) does, when working on thinning doe deer. The reason stated is.....they will produce INFERIOR offspring....but I THINK this has more to do with the doe being an inferior breeder than it does with the buck being an inferior sperm donor. I, too, would like to hear some more on this. Is a 1.5 yr old buck less desireable as a breeder @ 1.5 than he would be @ 2.5? Are genetics "age sensitive"? Interesting..... |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: PreacherTony ORIGINAL: Germ He is not, but his "boys" maybe and yes there is evidence. Then we produce a gentic inferior deer who than breeds, the process keeps repeating.... |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Here is article I read my famous TRMicheals;)
By June the bucks and does should be on their summer home ranges, and the does should be fawning. It's time to start working on habitat improvement, fertilizing, mowing, spraying, and clearing trails and paths. You can also start glassing from the roads, to see if there are any big bucks out there, and where they hang out. [/align] How Social Status Affects Health and The Rut It may be that current deer management and hunting practices in many areas (which result in lower than normal buck:doe ratios) that are the cause of the rut being delayed until late November, and continuing into January and even February in many northern states. In a deer management study by Dr. Larry Marchinton between 1981 and 1986, an increase in the buck to doe ratio from 25:100 in 1981-82, to 54:100 in 1983-84 resulted in the average breeding date changing from November 11 in 1981 to October 15 in 1982, almost a month earlier than normal; and the length of the breeding period was shortened from 96 to 43 days. In another study using quality deer management techniques, the average breeding date occurred almost two months earlier. During Marchinton's study the average number of fetuses per does over the age of 2 1/2 years increased from 1.6 in 1985 to 1.9 in 1986, and pregnancy in doe fawns was detected in 1985. Fetal male:female sex ratios shifted from 64:36 during 1981-83, to a more balanced 47:53 during 1984-86. The average weights of yearling bucks increased from 90 pounds in 1982 to 110.5 pounds during the 1983-86 portion of the study. There was a significant weight increase in the 3.5 year and older bucks in a similar study by McKelvy. The positive results of these studies were credited to the increased age structure of the bucks. An increase in the number of older dominant bucks in the deer herd has a direct suppressing effect on the testosterone levels of younger bucks, which reduces their aggressiveness and competition for breeding privileges. Since a low position in the breeding hierarchy results in less reproductive behavior and lower weight loss, those young bucks that do not breed grow to greater body size before they become dominant. This results in an overall increase in the number of older dominant bucks, which leads to earlier fawning dates and heavier body sizes of yearling bucks; and this leads to higher survival rates and eventually to increased buck numbers. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: neck4752 Any buck to me with my bow is a trophy! Doe, button, spike, fork whatever. Where I hunt you dont see a whole lot of deer and somtimes and sit on stand for days with out seeing one. Its like fishing. A 3-5lb large mouth is a "nice catch" up here. I went down to Florida and people would say thats a "small one". Dont get me wrong we do grow deer big up here! Hunting is just very different. Hence there is much coverage of our state in hunting mags, shows, and videos. So my long winded response is......If its not at least 9.5 years old I let it walk! Just kidding. If I have a good shot and I am hungry any animal is a trophy! Jim Do you really not see the connection between "ain't many deer in these parts"...."so we shoot whatever and call it a trophy".... Just stop typing and think on it for a few min.... Another that bothers me is "with my bow anything is a trophy"... Maybe it is different in VA (where I live) but I see more deer and have more oportunities to kill them during bow season than any other time. Firearm season has spooked deer that aren't in a "rut". To me, in my area, it is harder to get that "trophy" during firearms season. Please chill with the bow is so challenging crap. Thanks, KP |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
The way I read it is this:
Young bucks do not have enough fat to support them in the breeding season. So when they are active in the breeding season they use energy use to grow there bodies to do all the running around. This puts stress on all there systems, I do not believe they have "less" gentic boys, but they are breeding with their system that are "Stressed Out" Does that make sense? |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Germ
that study makes sense. Energy that would have gone into breeding, goes into growing to allow bucks to reach thier potential. |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
Germ,
I still don't think being stressed out would affect the genetics (which are basically DNA imbedded in the swimmers). I thought that there were 3 basic things wrong with too many does: (1) Too many deer = overpopulated, not enough food, etc. (2) Rut not as good = too many does to chase, don't need to travel as far, and (3) Hope I say this clearly: In a well balanced ratio, often only those bucks that are dominant and genetically superior will get a chance to breed because they will push the genetically inferior or smaller (whatever the age) deer out of the way. But, if there is a 2:1 doe to buck ratio all of the bucks will get to breed (including genetically inferior ones). So, while a 1.5 year old buck might have some stud genes, the other non-dominant, inferior 1.5 bucks are still getting a piece of the action. So the overall gene pool could be lowered in that way. Does that third point make sense? Are we all saying the same thing? |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: Killer_Primate ORIGINAL: neck4752 Any buck to me with my bow is a trophy! Doe, button, spike, fork whatever. Where I hunt you dont see a whole lot of deer and somtimes and sit on stand for days with out seeing one. Its like fishing. A 3-5lb large mouth is a "nice catch" up here. I went down to Florida and people would say thats a "small one". Dont get me wrong we do grow deer big up here! Hunting is just very different. Hence there is much coverage of our state in hunting mags, shows, and videos. So my long winded response is......If its not at least 9.5 years old I let it walk! Just kidding. If I have a good shot and I am hungry any animal is a trophy! Jim Do you really not see the connection between "ain't many deer in these parts"...."so we shoot whatever and call it a trophy".... Just stop typing and think on it for a few min.... Another that bothers me is "with my bow anything is a trophy"... Maybe it is different in VA (where I live) but I see more deer and have more oportunities to kill them during bow season than any other time. Firearm season has spooked deer that aren't in a "rut". To me, in my area, it is harder to get that "trophy" during firearms season. Please chill with the bow is so challenging crap. Thanks, KP |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
ORIGINAL: LebeauHunter Germ, I still don't think being stressed out would affect the genetics (which are basically DNA imbedded in the swimmers). I thought that there were 3 basic things wrong with too many does: (1) Too many deer = overpopulated, not enough food, etc. (2) Rut not as good = too many does to chase, don't need to travel as far, and (3) Hope I say this clearly: In a well balanced ratio, often only those bucks that are dominant and genetically superior will get a chance to breed because they will push the genetically inferior or smaller (whatever the age) deer out of the way. But, if there is a 2:1 doe to buck ratio all of the bucks will get to breed (including genetically inferior ones). So, while a 1.5 year old buck might have some stud genes, the other non-dominant, inferior 1.5 bucks are still getting a piece of the action. So the overall gene pool could be lowered in that way. Does that third point make sense? Are we all saying the same thing? Sorry PT I just get nervous talking about sex with a Preacher;) |
RE: Shooting young bucks?
I guess til you realize they don't care what you are saying.:D;)
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