GMMAT

I agree with all of your points, guys......just offering a perspective.

Have a great day.

_Dan

Beat me to it. What he is practicing is TDM not QDM.

manuman

To all of the , 'Oh well, to each his own.' replies ,and the defense of this as being a matter of the right to choose to hunt as one wishes---you are missing the point completely. No one says they can't do what they want with their land or 'hunt' anyway that is legal. The issue and what I think most find detestable is that it isn't hunting at all. Hunting is being redesigned, and notice I didn't say redefined because you can't change what hunting is and always has been. Hunting is being redesigned to become another macho peeingcontest to see who can outdo the other in regards to size of antler and body, rgeadless of the method employed to do so. It has become a matter of farming and over managing, a manipulation of sorts to unnaturally produce 'quality' , 'trophy' animals. As long as it squeeks in under the legal radar, regardless of whether it is truly ethical or not--and there is a difference--then we are all supposed to jsut go along with it and for the sake of getting along and preserving a unified front, we are all supposed to just let turn the other way and pretend as if it isn't anything to be concerned about. It is of great concern, and it is something that needs to be addressed.
First, the distinction needs to be clearly made between QDM( a good thing) and this trend toward mass producing, and artificially inducing 'monster' bucks. Allowing younger bucks to walk, and achieving normal buck to doe ratios( 1 to 1 is not natural), selective harvests,etc. , along with supplemental feeding plots are good stewardship practices. The extremes that some go to, and we all know what these are, take away from the 'hunt' and the chase and replace it with shooting( as opposed to hunting it)a buck with little or no effort in the 'hunt' and all of the effort in the 'manufacturing' process. This is the primary distinction and the primary problem.'Hunting' is being resesigned to become a 'manufacturing' process in the name of 'management'. If some is good, then a whole lot is better, and this isn't necesarrily so.What is lost is not worth it.
Another distinction that needs to be made is between what should and shouldn't be considered a 'trophy'. If this trend continues, and I'm sure it will only get worse since the almighty dollar is the driving force--along with a whole lot of ego--then a separate category for the 'manufcatured' trophy needs to be introduced in distinction with the buck that is the natural result of what the land yields. Sort of like in body building--the distinction between the steroid users and the natural athletes. Which is more impressive--a 20" bicep produced by hard training, sound nutrition, good rest, or a 22" bicep produced by injecting needles in your butt? We always succumb to taking the shortcuts, the easy ways, the extremes, the outlandish, thebigger is better, etc. with no thought of the long range effects and implications of where things are going.
I am going to hunt hard, scout hard, do everything I can to hone my skills as a hunter. I am going to find ways to enter and leave my stands undetected, and learn more about my property, its terrain, prevailing wind, and structure, and pay better attention to food sources(natural) and bedding areas. I will employ some sound management practices as I have, allowing younger bucks to walk, keeping numbers balanced, etc. . I also will resist the temptation to go buy all the gimmick 'supplements' to 'improve' the size and shape of antlers, the temptation to have to live up to the extreme 'standards' placed on me by some within the hunting community as to what is and isn't a 'quality' buck. I will enjoy hunting. I won't let it become 'redesigned' by those who wish to turn it into a ego trip and a circus act, compromising for the sake of a photo op. I will go for the best my land can yield without manipulating it to be a deer farm or an unnatural environment that doesn't even remotely resemble tha wild . i won't to preserve the 'wildness', the adventure, the uncertainty of just what is out there, and will be content with what it yields me, regardless of what pressure is inserted to conform to this new direction that some take.
To each his own--fine--just keep in mind that it isn't traditional hunting, and remember what is being lost by the pursuit of 'bigger and better' at any cost.

Montana Dave

Oh my God! I am sick to death of this tired, old debate. Once again, I gotta offer a view from the other side.

I wont bore you with the story, or promote our ranch in Texas. But, if your family homesteaded a cattle ranch in 1899, and the cattle industry fell to pieces, and the tax man came knockin' every year wanting more, and all you had was the land and a failing cattle business, but you started having hunters offering to pay you to hunt??? Give me a break. Any one of you that say's " I would rather give our ranch to the IRS than charge hunters to hunt is a liar. Thats right, a LIAR!

OK. Now I am stuck with a failed cattle ranch in Texas. The Department of Transportation high-fenced along all the highways to reduce the # of traffic fatalities due to the abundance of deer. Hunters are coming in droves and offering $ to all the failed cattle ranches to hunt their land and the ranchers figure out, "Hey, maybe we wont lose the ranch to the IRS afterall." It becomes competitive, just like the cattle business. Ever heard of cattle rustling? Stealing anothers cattle? Well, the deer were jumping the 3-strand barbed wire fence separating the ranches sosome ranches made them higher so the deer would not run to the next ranch and get shot by another hunter. It is now a competitive, cold, hard business. No different than the cattle business!Food. Water.Everything the cattle required, the deer required.

Didnt take long to figure out that bigger deer were worth more $. Just like cows! The bigger you grow them, the more $ you get. Dont forget.... hunting is now your business. You are a "rancher". No different than in 1899.

So, let me get this straight. You would rather give your family ranch to the IRS than stay afloat, feed your family and charge willing hunters to hunt your land??? In this open, public forum- I am calling you a liar!

Hunting, especially in Texas is a cold, hard business. They are growing the biggest deer in the world (yes, there are 100 deer in Texas that would beat the current world record by 30 inches!). Is it as "challenging", as hunting public land in your state? Absolutely not! I would never say that! Hunting is a business and bigger antlers mean more $. I believe the "spirit" of the hunt has been lost in all the $$$, in Texas anyway.Do I like it? Truthfully, no. But I dont see a long line of people jumping up and down offering to pay all my bills for me, either. So, I do what I have to do to feed my family- just like my great-grandfather did. Just like you would do.

Hunting? There is nothing I enjoy better than packing into the Bitteroot Mountains (Montana) every year with mybackpack and my bow for two weeks. Thatis hunting. That is the "spirit" of the hunt. Anybody want to come with me? HuntingBry- care to join me? I could teach you a little aboutsurvival and living off the land. And, you can leave your "stand" at home in Pennsylvania! (Ha! Ha!)

manuman

That is exactly why I said make the distinction--as you have ---between hunting, and what used to be hunting, has become. Most of the argument I have against it is that most that practice the extreme measues of 'trophy' hunting can't or won't make this distinguishment , and then they get irate if someone has the audacity to shoot a 'substandard' buck according to their ridiculously unrealistic ecpectations. They forget that some people just love to hunt and don't use it as an ego trip or that they are just happy to be able to hunt in a traditional manner. And I know that many get just as angry at the ones with these 'trophy' standards.You and anyone else have the right to do with your land as you wish, and I nor anyone else can tell you what to do. It is the bigger picture and the long range efect that concerns me. I sympathize with your plight. Has it ever occurred to you that you have the oppurtunity to redirect these hunters somewhat by reintroducing elements of fair chase and elevating their expectations back toward a proper perspective without endangering your livelihood?

Montana Dave

Manuman,

Well, we own the oldest archery-only ranch in Texas, possibly the country. It is all balance. If I only allowed hunting with spears, I would lose the ranch. Or, I could operate a kill farm and allow rifle hunters to kill by the truckload. I could just "order" another truckload of deer next week, ya know! It is as simple as a phone call. I would literally make 2X the $ if I did that.

But I have a deep respect for the "spirit" of the hunt. It is not just the kill, it is the "hunt" I try to offer our hunters. I am sure somebody is going to start the "So you think bowhunters are better?" crap now. But, I think by offering an archery-only experience, the hunters have to get close to the animals and really participate in the circle of life.

So, to answer your question... our archery-only approach allows me enough$$$ to pay the bills without becoming another kill farm, like many.

Also, someting to consider... Many inthe great state of Texas dont know anything else. Of course they are going to defend THEIR heritage! Just like you would.

Also, I gotta admit- there are definately worse ways to make a living than mine! I did get a job once, worst 2-weeks of my life! (Ha! Ha!)

il coyote

I watched a show with David Morris(mightnot be the same excact one as this, but it sounds pretty close) He starts the show by saying how they've carefully 'managed' the herd, only 'take' certain deer that fit the 'criteria' and provide a low pressure, high mineral environment. Next scene is GreatWhite David himself decked out in blue jeans and a camo t-shirt perched in a WAY OUT IN THE OPEN tripod, casualy giving comentary to the at home audience, while dozens of deer aimlessly meander around the feed troughs, untill a buck that meets the strict criteria for ol' Dave makes his way into rifle range. After the mighty beast falls to davids custom rifle, ranch hands Poncho and Jesus arrive to load the deer, and the first thing David says is........"look what you guys grew"...Tack it up on the wall, David, you've earned this one through hours of hard work, be proud of yourself.

Where did this type of hunting/shooting/farming come from? How has a recreational, friend/family activity, weekend getaway turned into 'who can raise the biggest bone?' Do some people not see where this is going to lead?

HuntingBry

Would I care to join you? Heck yeah! That sounds like a great time, but I'd need a few months to get my arse in shape for a hunt like that.

Look, nobody's trying to knock you for trying to make a living, but the fact of the matter is what you described andwhat manuman described combined together is resulting in more people catching on and buying up land to "ranch" for hunting. These people weren't ranchers in the past, but they see those $$$ and care nothing about the "spirit" of the hunt. So as this mentality spreads like a virus more and more guys have to get a lease to hunt if they want to be able to enjoy our sport.

Also, I don't know how well you do in your business, but if you are backpacking in for 2 weekhunts in the Bitteroot Mountains your family isn't starving. If you have a ranch that has been in your family for quite some time and you are using it for hunting you are probably doing fairly well. Good for you, that is very fortunate that you have been able to keep your land and prosper, but when I have to pay to hang my stand here in Pennsylvania, I'll be sure to remember that it started down there in Texas.

Montana Dave

HuntingBry,

Thank you for the encouragement. Out of necessity, many of the ranch owners turned to "hunting" as a business, and yes- it did start in Texas.

Please educate us on how you would have handled the same situation differently. This, my friend, should be entertaining!

archer58

Dave is correct. This type of ranch is a business. You're in business to make money. Growing big racks is how you do it.
There are plenty of doctors,lawyers and the like that don't have the time to spend hunting, or the lifestyle that most of us enjoy in the outdoors.
They are willing to pay big money to expierence what we love. It may be the only time each year.
NYC has very few treestands.

I wouldn't hunt on such ranch. That takes all the best part out of it IMO.
But I would not condem anyone who only has a week out of a year, that wants to expierence a successful kill. To some , that is hunting. Just not my kind.