To expound.......Baiting.....
 

I heard a common theme in several of Atlas posts (on his thread....I should say)on what we condsidered hunting and shooting. It was Fences. Another was baiting.

It's legal to bait DEER, here. I feed 12 mo. a yr.....but don't hunt near it. It's ILLEGAL to bait bears, here....as it is in VA (I'm fairly sure) during the season.

Why would it be "OK" for some to bait bears.....and not bait deer? Why is it some states allow it while others do not?

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I am fairly certain that when WI banned baiting of deer a few years agoit was due to CWD. We now have a limit of 2 gal per 40 acres. As to why one could bait bear and not deer, my guess would be for the same reason. I have never seen 10 to 12 bear at a bait site. Less likely for a bear to spread any disease.

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I still wonder why me putting out a feeder is baiting and the guy that hunts the edge of a 200 acre corn feild isn't baiting and condemns me for it. Oh and I don't hunt deer over feeders, hogs yes deer no.

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TX....PLEASE don't take this as confrontational, from me. It isn't. I feed deer 12 mo a yr. It's also legal to hunt over it here in NC......I just choose not to (for different reasons that most think).

I'm not putting ANYONE down for baiting. My question is......OK....to the point....HOW could you put a man's method of hunting down for one species.....when you do the same thing for another species? Isn't baiting......baiting....no matter what the animal being sought?

Is that fair????

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I agree with you:) What's hunting over a water hole, even a naturally occurring one? Montana's regulations stipulate that anything placed (including water) as an attractant to concenctrate game is illegal. However, you can hunt over a naturally occuring water hole or carcass as far as I know, and I did querry the localGW about it several years ago. A freshly cut corn/hay field isa major drawfor deer, at least that's my experience in Illinois. When I lived in oregon, I found that fresh logging attracted black tails for the mosses, etc. that they could easily get from felled trees.

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GMMAT, I didn't take that as an attack from you. Not at all. I guess I wonder the same thing you do. I too feed year round. That is more to keep deer on the property than anything else.
I guess we will never all see eye to eye. Why cry foul if it is legal? I don't know although I too have been known to state my opinion of another mans means of hunting. I just don't get how some guys can take pride in the animals they kill considering the way the killing is done. But then I don't have to "get it" do I? As long as what they do is legal. Sometimes keeping my opinions to myself is not easy. Thats why I don't. Oh well, we all march to the beat of different drummers.

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In some states the DNR or Fish and Game consider bears a nosense or a threat to pulic safety so they allow whatever means possiable for the hunter to harvest the bear

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I have no problem with baiting or hunting over bait sites. I do feed year round as well and also have food plots, crops, and alfalfa fields so the deer eat well at my place;). I, like you GMMAT, do not hunt over the bait sites but it is not because I wouldn't feel ehtical doing it. Mysupplemental feeding is to keep them around throughout the year and it does a good job.To some people it is taking the easy way out, but I honeslty can't see their point. Like hunting bears over bait. In the thick boreal forests of Canada, how else could you ever get a shot with a bow at one? Walking the roads until one pops out doesn't seem any more sporting to me, but there again is just an opinion.

Bottom line, I see no problem so longas it is legal.

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Why I don't hunt over bait.....

I've seen deer come into bait sites.....and I've seen deer that aren't anywhere near bait. They are two different acting animals.

I choose not to hunt over bait because........it's easier. That's not the answer a lot of you would think....but it's the truth. You take a deer walking through an acorn flat vs. a deer going to afeeder and think about which one is going to be on alert.

AGAIN....I have nothing against baiting or people who hunt over it. Whatever is legal and works! My question was....why is it "OK" to bait some animals....and shyed away from for other species???

RE: To expound.......Baiting.....
 

In the south deer have plenty of food through out the hunting season. When acorns begin to drop the deer start to ignore corn piles. Soy beans are not harvested until late November or early december so that is another preferred food source. With all of the food around the larger bucks typically do not visit the bait piles(during daylight). As for a state further north where natural browse is gone and snow covered a corn field or pile may be more attractive. So to sum it up my corn piles in NC work well for trail cameras but do not work well for hunting over them.

RE: To expound.......Baiting.....
 

In Indiana where I hunt if you have a standing cornfield, then the deer stack up in the corn and don't like to come out

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I would hope not. Because what you do is baiting. You may call it feeding, just because you don't hunt near it. But the fact is, it is baiting. You have it out and it changes the deers natural pattern. Same thing, two different names.

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Dan:

PLEASE don't read anything into it. I have NO PROBLEMS with people baiting.

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My issue with this subject is that bait/feeders/foodplots (or whatever the trendy word is at the time) artificially change thenatural feeding habits, movements, and available nutrition of whitetails in a particular area.

To me, the line; "attract and hold more deeron your property" is a pretty weak motto to have.

Why aren't some people just happy with what occurs naturally?

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It is illegal to do in indiana but I have no problem with people baiting. Its just not something I grew up doing. It all falls back to what you were taught when you started. We hunters can be pretty thick headed and not up to changing!:D I especially can understand the use of feeders but not hunting over them because they serve many purposes... 1) more food to keep deer healthy, 2) helps keep the deer on your land so your neighbors aren't shooting your bruisers!, 3) increases population of other huntable game! (I'm partial to fried squirrel!)

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Why aren't some people just happy to let other states and other hunters decide for themselves what is best for them?

It's a fair question.

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I don't bait and never have, even though it's legal here. I also have no problems with people doing it since I feel that hunting over a natural food source is very similar to baiting as is the use of sexual scent attractants.

What I have found though, is that mature deer - esp big bucks - will AVOID a baited area until after dark, if he visits it at all. Most mature deer in my area seem to equate piles of food with human intervention and take no chances.

I have capitalized on this by building trails out of the woods that offered a [supposedly] safe exit without going past the bait piles that another hunter places in the same spot every year. The deer stopped using that major trail when the bait appeared and began using my trail. I scored, he didn't. The spot is about 250 yards from my house on a relative's land.

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Ithink your looking at the difference of Federal Regulations vs State by State.. State by State does whatever the Game Commision decides upon. Like in NC You can Hunt with Dogs for deer..in many Northern States thats not even talked about! That doesn't mean it's wrong by the ethics of either group of hunters, it's wrong cuz the law says so.

I don't know that we can make sense of the laws..but they are what they are.

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Baiting is leal here and i really have no prblem with it. I have baited a few times before and have formed the opinon that baiting sucks. I have yet to kill a buck off of bait and i find it a useless effort to really try and hunt a big deer. They may come in yes but not till the middle of the night. The young pups will be around all day along with the does but the older boys have seen that movie once and didn't like the ending. I have learnt over my experiences, mistakes that to hunt a truely big buck here you do not bait, you don't want to give the indication anything is out of the ordinary, hunt his patterns and killem. Much faster and more productive for me.

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You mean like planted crop fields? Those aren't natural either.

There are very few parts of the country where you can even go and see a natural environment. AK is about it. I just don't seem to understand why you would think it is odd to want to better the habitat and available nutrients to the deer herd and other wildlife. So, do younot likeyour local DNR or DOW for doing the same things on public lands?

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OK ya got me. let me edit and say that planted crop fields can be excluded from the list. I didn'tthink we were talking about agriculture and farmers making a living from it, did you? I did hear, however, that since IL is a non baiting state that planting any cornor soybeans for agricultural purposes is soon to be illegal to stop the spread of CWD.

I didn't make my first reply even thinking about farmers, i was thinking about baiting animals, that's what this was started for , anyway. and I still have my belief that doing anything unnatural for the purpose of attracting, holding, or supplementing wildlife is wrong.

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Sounds like reasonable question to me.I think some states view baiting more as a means of keeping animal populations under control then they doas being ethical/unethical.And they should, theyre jobs to manage the wildlife, not dictate ethics.

Bears as far as I know {never hunted them}would be much harder to control numbers on without the use of baiting.I cant remember where but a few years back I read an artical where baiting was banned somewhere for bears, hunting license sales dropped, kill numbers dropped way way down and they were worried about the long term affects it would have on the bear population.Never heard a follow up story so I cant say if the fears were justified.Kinda like banning cougar hunting with dogs then whining the mountain lions are eating the joggers, it dont make sense.:eek:

Bears also have laws pertaining to shooting sows and cubs I believe.A lotta the shows I see stress the fact that bears hanging around a bait pile are much easier to gauge the sex and size of then they would be otherwise.Deer either have antlers or they dont but its usually pretty obvious at a glance if its a legalbuck or not.

Same thing with a lot of hunting regs if you think about it.Why is it legal to hunt coon with dogs but not deer in many areas?Matter of fact taking a spotlight out and shooting a coon thats moving naturaly without dogs is illegal.Go figure;)

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I see. Opinion respected but disagreed with. :)

I have really enjoyed working on increasing the habitat and setting upfood plots and supplementing the deer and other wildlife. I get to watch a lot more deer and quailnow anddoing the work is a big part of my hobby. Saying that it has drastically altered my success rate would be a lie, but instead of seeing deer from the stand 1:3 times out it is close to every time out. Just nice to have them around.

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Baiting and using dogs are both illegal in Minnesota. In my opinion, andI bet others as well, the use ofdogs does not lend itself to "fairchase" hunting. I guess youcould also make a case that baiting interfers with fair chase as well.

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We bait in the UP, just kinda always have. I enjoy watching the deer . I now hunt IL as well, there is no real difference between the cut corn and my corn pile at home. We can also bait bears in MI, which I think makes sense, because I'm with GMMAT, why one and not the other. We see more bears than deer in early bow with the bait anyway.I also do not care if someone baits or doesn't, especially in the woods of the UP, where baiting is pretty much the way it's done, if you don't bait you are in the minority. I will say though that no matter how much corn I put out at home, I've never seen the number of deer I will see in a cut corn field down here, regardless of densities or deer.

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But the question was why one and not the other?? Rabbit and bird hunters use dogs. Waterfowlers use dogs..do you see where i'm going? You can't compare everything to everything else. Each is an individual case.

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I get you. I agree that you can make a case the using dogs for rabbit and bird such as pheasants is the same, but the waterfowlers that I know only use dogs to retrieve and not chase. ;)

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This is a great topic! And A very difficult one to get a true answer about.Unless it can be justified biologically from a perspective of population control than it is most likely tradition or politically motivated.It is the way it has always be done and as a result of it there is political pressure to keep it that way.
The use of an attractant is the use of an attractant.WIth Bears my understanding is that in area's that are dense that is the only way (baiting) that you can draw them out sufficiently to have them be huntable.
It does not appeal to me from a challenge point of view,but I have no problem with folks who do it.There are some definite benefits,such as the ability to judge an animal more sufficiently,the ability to put a better shot on an animal because it is occupied and stationary etc.
Having said it doesn't appeal to me,I don't know that I can explain how my use of lures to take game,which I have done with deer and bear is any different.

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Jeff, I realize that and was reading nothing into your post. I also have no problem with people baiting. It is my opinion that even if you are not hunting over your feeder, you are still baiting. That feeder is altering the deers pattern unnaturally. Hence feeding is baiting.

Understand?

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Sure. What's your point, though???:)

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Jeff, I believe it has to do with numbers (population) in some cases, like TX. There are SO many deer in TX, IMO, the TPWD, allows baiting for deer to try to help keep the numbers in check. For bears, we CANNOT bait them, because we CANNOT shoot them. There are only a few Louisiana Black Bears starting to show up in E. TX, but they are protected.Another scenario is with turkeys in E TX. TPWD has been trying to reestablishthe population in E TX. Wedo have spring seasonBUT we cannot bait them, but W TX and S TX, there's spring and fall season baiting is okay and pretty much pick your weapon, BUT there are A LOT more turkeys in the western and southern parts of the state. THEN, there's hogs,....bait 'em, trap 'em,hunt 'em at night, use dogs, use horses, just about anyway you can get 'em. (Some restrictions may apply in certain areas)THEY'RE EVERYWHERE MAN!!!

This is just my guess/opinion so don't take it to the bank.

One thing I don't get is, if baiting causes CWD then I would guess that TX would have the highest number of CWD cases,.....I have not heard of a single case in TX. Maybe CWD is here, I just haven't heard of any cases.

SometimesI bait, sometimes I don't.

One more thing:
Everything changes a deer's "NATURAL" travel route! Any abnormal scent, noise, treestand that just showed up in a buck's bedroom,COULD make them change their path. If a deer "decides" to go get a few nibblets of corn from a feeder that just popped up a few yards or even several yards off his "normal" path, then it became his natural path. The same thing happens when a White Oak starts producing acorns one year. I'd bet $$$ that a deer will alter his "natural" path to snag a few big white oak acorns. If we grunt a deer in, use scent, or anything else, then we alter their natural path. The "I don't because it alters the natural path.", argument don't hold water with me. JMO:D

Sorry Jeff, for getting off subject there for a minute.
Population!!!:D:D That's my guess.

TXMM

RE: To expound.......Baiting.....
 

My point is it seems you think that your "feeding" is not baiting. When, in reality, it is. So, its obvious you're not putting anyone down for baiting, because you do it too. Even though (from your posts) it seems you think you are not.

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Dan....you've obviously filled in some blanks on your own. I never said I did or didn't "bait". Call it what you want....I call it "supplemental Feeding". If you want to call it baiting.....then sure. But I've never denied it.

What I think you're hung up on is I said I don't HUNT over bait. I don't.

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I'm not hung up on anything.Why do you get so defensive? I was pointing out that what you call feeding is baiting. Nothing more, nothing less.

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They intoduced Turkey's where my brother lives in Idaho about 10 years ago. In the winter time when they have about 10 feet of snow they would take corn out for the Turkey's because there wasn't anything for them to eat. Well they fed them one day and when they came back the next day all the Turkey's were dead. The corn had been sprayed with something that killed the birds.

MC

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Someone mentioned this before. Bait is used for bears in the spring so one can be sure not to shoot a sow with cubs. As for the boars if a bait is hung high above the barrel and the boar stands you can also guage the size of the bear. Apparently ground shrinkage is an even bigger problem w/ bears. I've never bear hunted but I know people who have and this is what they were told.

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I'm sorry Dan.....Call it "Semantics".

And my point is....I never claimed I wasn't. Nothing more.

Have a good weekend.

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I always do!

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I think txmarshmonkey hit the nail on the head....In NC we have too many deer...In 1978 there were about 750 killed on the highway statewide...Last year it went over 15,000....What a waste....I've always said, I don't care how you kill them, you can run over them with a pickup as far as I'm concerned, as long as its legal in your state and you don't waste them...
Its none of my business how you hunt and none of yours how I hunt, as long as I am within the regulations.

We have just really gotten our turkey population up to a good level in the past few years, I lived in Georgia and Virginia in the late 70s and early 80s..
They had more turkeys then than NC has now....

As far as baiting bears, its been shown that they get a sugar high from doughnuts and crave them when baited...

But I believe it all comes down to each states population and how the state wants to control the herd...

Heck....It was illegal to gamble in NC a few years ago, now we have a lottery....

The Government determines what is legal and what is not..........

RE: To expound.......Baiting.....
 

Are you proposing a similiar method of baiting for whitetail? ;)