I've been gone (hunting) for 4 days and there's just WAY too much here to reply to but I have to seeing as how I'm the troublemaker<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Gary - what you read (and re-read) was exactly right - and I didn't change my mind on what happened with the doe - and I evidently didn't make myself clear enough. I shot a Doe early in the season in SD, 1/4ing away STEEPER than any other shot this year and the arrow nicked the ham & PASSED THRU behind the front shoulder - 40 yards and it was over. (I never even checked her for a 'slide' because she was dead and there was no reason for concern & I didn't notice anything abnormal)

Several weeks later I was off on a week+ hunt in MN - the first deer I took there was a Doe 1/4ing (not as steep as the SD Doe) at a dozen or so yards. This doe (again) went 40 yards.

The next morning I shot the Y/Spike I lost (and photo'd)

That day I checked out the doe & WITNESSED THE SLIDE (again - about 3 or 4 inches past a couple ribs THEN into the cavity & complete passthru).

The next day I X'd a spike/Y THRU THE HEART at 43 yards (yep - perfect shot - deer calm/relaxed, perfect broadside, range certainty 100% - and the only reason I could TAKE that shot at THAT range was the ACCURACY of the head)

The next day I recovered and photo'd the spike/Y that the wolves munched (yep, they gotta eat too but I'd prefer they dine on housecats<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

A few weeks later I fill my SD Buck tag & after skinning the deer I realize how lucky I was. (maybe I am that darn unlucky!)

So - there's a re-cap of what I've taken THIS YEAR with the heads - there is no 'imagination' or 'putting it to thinking' my facts as stated haven't changed - the doe I witnessed the 'slide' on wasn't the doe that I e-mailed you about earlier.

Also - just to re-iterate my bow is tuned well and I am MORE than willing to take responsibility for a lost animal. I lost a deer my first year hunting and I lost a deer last year. Last year was a JUNK shot and I swore that would never happen again - that's why I've taken over 30,000 shots this year and that's why I was so impressed with the ST's - my broadhead scores didn't DECREASE from fielpoints.

C903 & 5 Shot I thank you for your input - I had to stop reading C903's post about 10 times to re-focus - YOWZA!!! Must be a relative of Einstein or something - you'd think a guy that darn smart would know better than to hang out of a tree chasing critters!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Thanks for taking the time to get all of us smarter!

PatapscoMike's post struck home - with the deer I lost and the buck I recoverd you could PLAINLY see the ribs 'cut' as the head slid between the hide and the ribs - meaning there was a single blade perpendicular to the ribs, at the maximum (worst) angle.

Maybe I am that unlucky <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

I'm leaving for the woods again tomorrow at noon - have a good thanksgiving folks & I expect this thread to be on page 1 when I get back to a PC on the 2nd.




Aim small miss small

buckfvr

Re:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>With that in mind what are your thoughts regarding deflection tendencies of the Slick Trick versus a more conventional head like the muzzy or a thunderhead? TIA<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I have never used a Slick Trick or Thunderhead, but I did shoot Muzzys for a couple of years. Personally, I am not comfortable with the high profile and steep angle of the Slick Trick blades. However, without proper testing I cannot say that the design of the Slick Trick blades could definately cause the head to deflect, or to deflect at a greater rate than any other head might/would under the right conditions.

Being that it would be too expensive to purchase a herd of goats for live testing, and would cause an uprising, I will evaluate the head by reports of performance under actual field conditions such as was provided by &quot;huntmup.&quot;

I think the only true way to test the heads is in the field or as some other have said purchasing goats for that purpose which would most likely not be a popular idea. The only other reasonable thing I could think of would be to take a recently deceased roadkill and hang it and use it for testing. Granted the blood will most likely have settled and coagulated but you would still be using flesh and bone. I have considered trying this myself, but have no place to do it and I'd probably be divorced before I'm even married.<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

5shot, thanks for the tests. The thing that I like about your tests is that while they are not very close to a real life scenario (I don't hunt many tires or steel drums<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) they are comparitive of other heads on the market. That is valuable information to see how a head stacks up to its competition and again I thank you for it.

c903, my thoughts were echoed in your initial post (although you said it much more eloquently than I could have hoped to). I kind of figured that you had a background in forensic science. It is a subject that is of great interest to me and I have researched the scientific side of it quite a bit. Unfortunately, I am unable to detach the human emotion side thus not allowing me to pursue it as a career. If you could, please shoot me an email. There are some things regarding the subject I would like to discuss with you.

jcrayford, I think I know what c903 was referring to when he said the medium would assist in penetration (c903, please correct me if I'm wrong). The board that was used was a dry wood particle board. If you have some at home, try pushing a broadhead tipped arrow almost parallel to the board with a slight angle toward it. Once the blades catch in the dry wood the force of you pushing will cause the tip of the head to go into the board as well. Now if this were to occur with the force of an arrow leaving a bow the arrow would penetrate the wood. Now imagine what happens when you are butchering a deer. When your knife hits a slick rounded bone it does not catch as the broadhead blades did in the wood, but conversely it skips and deflects in the direction the force takes it. The same thing would happen with a broadhead unless there is a reduced angle and enough force for it to smash or penetrate through the bone. I hope this makes sense.

Gary, any word on when the 125 grain heads will be available? I'd be interested in giving them a shot, but I need to beef up my arrows and need the extra weight to get my FOC right.

Huntingbry

I am definitely not an &quot;Einstein&quot; type as insinuated by &quot;huntmup,&quot; nor do I have a degree in any orf the forensic sciences. I am trained in the field and application of crime/death related forensics and have 27 years of exposure and &quot;hands on&quot; experience.

Unless technical and in-depth science is required to detect, hypothesize, or solve (answer), common sense is a solid and proven system of knowledge. It does not always require a degree and a &quot;papered&quot; scientist to conclude or to hypothesize.

You have just confirmed what I have just said, Huntingbry. Using common sense, based on your knowledge and experience of personal past events and experiences, you have commendably and clearly articulated a theory that is valid and, yes, was what I was describing.

Keep in mind though, without scientific facts our theory remains just that, a theory. Now it is up to others to challenge and try to discredit our theory. That is one way the best probability of an unknown is determined.

Reminds me of a story:

A college professor was driving on a back-road, and was passing by a state mental institution when a tire on his vehicle went flat.

He pulled over and began to change the tire. While doing so, he tipped the hubcap that was holding the lug nuts and all of the nuts rolled into a sewer opening that was situated at the very spot he was changing the tire.

Perplexed, the professor walked up and down the road trying to determine a solution to his problem. While doing so, the professor noticed that there was a gentleman leaning against a tree on the institution's property whom was quietly observing him. The professor noticed that the man was attired in pajamas and a robe, and, therefore, correctly concluded the man was a patient in the institution.

After several minutes had passed, the patient approached the professor and advised him that he (patient) was aware of the professor's dilemma and had a solution. The professor was slightly agitated but decided to humor the patient to avoid a confrontation and to get rid of him. The professor, with a tone of intellect arrogance, asked the patient what he (patient) thought the solution was.

The patient told the professor to remove one lug nut from the other three tires and use them to mount the tire that the professor was installing. Then the professor could slowly drive into town and purchase a new set of lug nuts. The professor was amazed but did as the patient advised.

As the professor was about leave, he saw that the patient was still leaning against the tree. The professor asked him, &quot;Are you a patient in this institution?&quot; The patient replied, &quot;Yes, I am.&quot; The professor then said, &quot;How is it that you are a patient in a mental institution when you were able to solve a problem that I could not?&quot; The patient replied, &quot;I am in here because I am nuts, not because I am stupid!&quot;

c903 I love that professor story, it has never ceased to amaze me how some of the smartest people I know are also the craziest!!!

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

Ditto, Taz!

c903, It's 1 o'clock again. Have finally figured out what is going on here. I think I understand and it isn't as complex today. You seem to have lightened up a little. I would bet that you are a pretty eloquent speaker. I think huntingbry did a pretty good job of enlightening me on the subject too. Still very interesting. terry<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>

LIVE FREE OR DIE

lawnfarmer

I could not have lightened up, for I was never heavy. The absence of tone of voice is the one great defect of text-only forums. Too often, the reader mistakenly hears sarcasm, hostility, and ridicule.

No, I do not consider myself an eloquent speaker. However, my profession required I be articulate in speech and in writing. In my personal life I prefer to remain &quot;earthy.&quot;

PS: Do not pardoned me yet, I may not be finished.


Edited by - c903 on 11/28/2002 01:08:58

The Slick Trick and the Rocky Ti have similar tip and blade geometry. If one deflects the other should too, neither have a deflection reputation.

Thanks for your time and effort 5shot . I allways value your oppinion . I shot 2 deer last year both broadside shoots both down within 30 yards . These heads do some serious damage , they are not the sharpests heads I' ve ever seen , and that may be why some have had troubles . They need sharpening . They are very accurate . Oldhootowl maybe the guy who complained about muzzies penitration was useing the same heads for 3d targets and did' nt replace the blades before hunting . I cant see how there would be a penitration problem with a muzzy head with brand new blades in it , that is unless hes shooting armidilos they are allmost bullet proof . My friend shot one with a vortex minimax and it just ricoched off of his back , I later nailed him with a magnus .