txjourneyman

i'm sorry but I can't seem to apply this to my 400 acres of highly pressured lease. My hunting buddy and I have talked to adjoining landowners about trying QDM. Its not gonna happen. Most adjoining properties are from 10-50 acres. There is a TON of pressure. The prevailing attitude is "brown its down". We have tried to change that and we can't. So I too will shoot what I see. We don't have a herd, we have some deer. Until I can afford to hunt land where QDM is possible I'm not going to pass much. this is my second year of bowhunting and I am having an absolute blast. That is what it is all about to me. QDM or QAM sure seems to be a lot easier for some than it is for others. And yes, I know I could do my part. I could have passed on the spike or the young 7pt. I killed this year. Just how effective would that be? Do you honestly think it would make a difference when one or two hunters out of dozens, (literally), try to manage the "herd"? Oh, BTW, we can only kill does during archery season. Most of the pressure is during gun season so our buck to doe ratio is a mess. Without the co-operation of other hunters and landowners QDM is just not possible on smaller tracts of land. I'm glad that you have the room and opportunity to practice QDM or QAM if that is your wish. I do not. I will continue to go out and have an absolute blast and kill whatever I see.

kwilson16

I had this discussion with a DNR rep recently. He said:

Young doe(<1.5 yrs old) are the best deer to remove from the herd. The older does' fawn have higher survival rates because they are better mothers - more robust mammaries, more predator savvy etc.

The trick is that it takes disciplined shooters to make sure that there are no buttons on the small 'does' that are being shot.

mlo3135127

Good post Dan. SBGobblers, I used to shoot mature does. In the spring of 2003 I found 37 dead deer and 99% of them were fawns. In the spring of 2004 I found 17 dead deer, 99% of them were fawns also. We have had to many deer for to long and the good browse is to high for the fawns to reach. Now I shoot doe fawns, knowing that they have a good chance of dyeing anyway. One good thing out of all this is, two bad winters in a row brought our deer numbers down to where they should be.

GMMAT

mlo...It would stand to reason, for me.....that you don't want those doe fawns coming into late estrous and breeding, too. Take 'em out.

We rarely have this scenario presented to us in re: to bucks. We understand the best breeding stock.....but we typically TARGET these animals. In a perfect world....."I" would have let the deer I shot Saturday WALK! He's one of the best breeders in my woods. That fact makes him my TARGET (And I harvested him, Saturday). I'm just being honest, here. If I were practicing strict QDM....he should have walked. I shot the deer I wanted to take. No apologies.

In a perfect scenario....I'd have wanted him breeding ALL the healthy, mature does. A young, smaller doe wouldn't do his genetics justice (IMO).

Jeff

Germ

Jeff this is only if your herd is in really bad shop. You take the older deer out, so the younger deerbreed. This will help weed out the bad genes. You only do so at the start. Sorry I should have put this in. Once your have a good base your all set.

Few place in MI where Metro parks are over run. When you get to this point deer are in bad shape. They are under weight, poor antler and just not healthy.

Places like my farm I shoot would just shoot a doe for every buck.I wouldreally not care about age on either. Ifwe could just do this our herds on average would bebetter.

The natural world is gone, we screwed it up, We should do what is best herd. Maybe it is shooting no bucks for awhile(I have done this).

We love the line "We are conservationallist" So lets start acting like one!

Sylvan

It seems inconsistent to me to argue that natures way is not selective and then propose a highly selective hunting strategy to more closely "resemble the natural world". If we wanted to get closer to your view of the "natural world" the herd would be better off if each hunter would adopt the if it's brown it's down philosophy. If everybody just shot the first deer they saw it would much more closely approximate a random kill than a stategy that very selelectively targets mature buck and females. Said another way, a strategy that selectively protects male deer with small antlers.

I disagree with your premise in the first place though. I don't believe natures way is random. I believe it is highly selective. Natural predators seek out the easiest to kill. The weak the sick and the young are usually the first to fall. The big mature bucks are the lowest on the predators target list. So it seems to me if your goal is to more closely "resemble the natural world" then proposing a strategy that targets the mature bucks over the imature bucks and femalesis bass ackwords!

Now if your goal is simply to improve the probability that a hunter will get the opportunity to kill a mature buck then I think you've got a winner.

ol eagle eyes

Unfortunately QDM would never work were I hunt. My family is just too big and own too many farms. Over the years the better part of several towns have permission to hunt there. One farm were I hunt is about 300 acres and not farmed (mostly woods and swamp and gas piplines). I'd wager that during our 1-week deer gun season over 50-75 different folks go through it. I have seen single groups over 20 people. Atleast half do not have permission. We have started throwing people off but only those who dont even know who's property it is. For QDM to work (we have thought about it) we would probably have to limit the number down to just the few family members and some close friends, like a dozen or less people that we trust. This would be almost impossible and probably piss enough people off to the point that I would worry about the unoccupied house on the land that is full of antiques. I always joke that we might as well call it state land. There is always big deer there too, and a couple monsters have been taken there. I'd love to do it, but I dont think its possible.

GMMAT

Hey....I agree! Why is everyone waiting on that buck, then. Why pass the does to shoot the 1-1/2 yr old buck? If i shot the first deer that presented itself each time afield.....I'll ASSURE you it owuld MOST times be a doe, though.

Jeff

Sylvan

If you want the kill to be random you wouldn't pass anything you could legally take.Taking a doeof course assumes you were issued a doe tag and you still have it. Once you're down to only a buck tag you shoot the first antlered deer you see. Again, that's if the goal is a random kill.

Why do hunters wait on the buck? Because hunters generally don't kill atrandom. Hunters are selective killers and as a rule prefer to kill a buck and the bigger the better.

Talondale

Germ, what makes you think an older doe has bad genes?

What is being bandied aboutis too much of a one size fits all approach to management. What any good management plan needs first is a good herd assessment. This is absolutely necessary before making any type of management plan. You have to determine the carrying capacity of your area (and surrounding area if the area you control is too small to be considered solo, which is usually the case). You have to do a browse survey to determine how badly the herd has impacted the local flora and how much of preferred and secondary browse is available. If all preferred, secondary, and even less preferred browse is eaten to the ground and up to 5' than it's a good indication you have too large a herd. You then have to determine what steps need to be taken to correct your area. But keep in mind that most people are fooling themselves that they can effect things in amajor way unless they can control a very large tract of contiguous land. After that there are many considerations on how to manage the area.

If you are interested in a truly scientific approach to managing your herd I suggest you buy and read Dr. Kroll's book A Practical Guide to Producing and Harvesting White-tailed Deer. He is a professor at the College of Forestry at Stephen F. Austin State University.