HuntingNet.com Forums - Ban compounds from archery season

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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??

No, sc, hitting two branches in one season should not discourage you except for the lost opportunites. Just bad luck and/or a lack of concentration. Could happen with any weapon. Your statement about "just holding the pin on target" leads me to beleive a pro shop couldd do you wonders on helping concentration, as it is badly neeeded with both styles of bows. Maybe that's your problem?
If you just flat out missed, I would say you need to spend some time practicing before heading afield, wouldn't you? I would, regardless of what type of weapon I was using.
O for 5, yes, I would hang it up for a while. 1 for 12, I believe they should take his license away, for good. That's a complete lack of respect for the animals. How many errant arrows you send towards live game before hanging it up, is for you to judge. Not many, hopefully.

"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"

RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??

JRW - So very wrong you are. Dodging the issues, not responding to question, not debating at all but posting the same stuff over and over ... not helping your anti-crossbow case any.

"This is one of your main problems SC you think the way YOU do things or your experiences are the way it is."

Lets key in on this for a moment. IF that were true, I would expect everyone to shoot a longbow, correct ? But I don't, I am fine with compound and crossbow hunters. Will everyone experience what I have ? Of course not, but some things are consistant and true, such as when you switch from rifles to compounds you become a better hunter because of stand placement etc etc like Charlie P and I were discussing. I think shooting a longbow/recurve makes you even better though, and CP - I should have worded that different and not have made that so matter of factly. My bad there.

So look at the last few posts. The "feeling" was that if you can't hit what you shoot at for goodness sakes switch to another weapon. 6ptsika even went as far as to say take the license away. So who is wanting to force their views on who ? First we got use a compound, recurve or longbow or don't come into archery season, and now we have hit X ammount of the deer you shoot at or don't hunt at all ??

6ptsika - I am using your statement as an example, nothing personal here. I agree in a large way that if you cannot hit what you are aiming at , don't hunt with that weapon. Thing is, as archery season is right now, if I were unable to hit with my longbow, I should then use a compound, right ? And in AR, if I cannot for whatever reason get good enough with a compound, then I have the option of a crossbow. This should be a good thing, less deer wounded, still have me as an archery hunter. Anti-crossbow people are saying to me then that if I cannot practice enough and spend enough time with a compound (in states that have no crossbow seasons) that tough then, no archery hunting for me. Is this not the message being sent ? And if THIS is true, then couldn't the longbow/recurve shooters say the very same thing, as it is true that they are more challenging weapons that require (overall) more practice, are less powerful, have shorter ranges, are not as accurate etc etc ? THAT guys is forcing your views and beliefs on others, exactly opposite of what I have been saying.

JRW - When was Arkansas' first crossbow season again ? And post a link to this stuff I have said on the LW. Maybe I did, maybe I have changed my mind, maybe you misread it, maybe I was wrong ?? If I got time I'll go browse the archives over there today. I remember deabting frontal shots as not good shots and quartering to shots as well and, I think I was wrong. Fred Bear certainly thought they were good shots. I remember ATV threads, cut on impact broadhead threads and general elk threads.

6ptsika - I DO agree with you on that last post of yours overall. I think that is why inline muzzleloaders and compounds are legal in their respective general seasons - they make the hunters more accurate. Advances in technology does this, as mechanical broadheads have. Changes in rules by G&F commissions rarely go back with technology (exceptions like Idaho primitive zones). Crossbows are for most people easier to use and more effective for them at close range animals. Why ? Pracitce I suppose, ease of use, but if those same people would try compounds I think they would find them very close to being as easy to use, and maybe more accurate. The guy I first mentioned ... he shot that compound all weekend. He has a very bruised up forearm (I again had to tell him about rotating that elbow and openig up his stance a bit) - I suspect his crossbow won't ever get shot again.
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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??

"This is one of your main problems SC you think the way YOU do things or your experiences are the way it is."

"Lets key in on this for a moment. IF that were true, I would expect everyone to shoot a longbow, correct ? But I don't, I am fine with compound and crossbow hunters."

HUH? Psssst...you also hunt with a compound, don't you? First, you completely miss what the man said, and then you forget what you hunt with? LOL!!!

Wonder why discussing things with you is like chasing your tail?

The man clearly stated that..."think the way YOU do things or your experiences are the way it is."

And you somehow read it to mean that he accused you of saying that everyone should use the same equipment you use? Dang son, that's not even apples & oranges...that's apples and fenceposts. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

"The "feeling" was that if you can't hit what you shoot at for goodness sakes switch to another weapon. 6ptsika even went as far as to say take the license away. So who is wanting to force their views on who ?"

Maybe you think that going, what...1 for 12 with a couple wounds(?) from a supposedly experienced bowhunter, is acceptable because he's using trad gear. But I highly doubt few outside your circle of friends feel that way.

"First we got use a compound, recurve or longbow or don't come into archery season, and now we have hit X ammount of the deer you shoot at or don't hunt at all ??"

No, I think it's called have enough respect for the animals you hunt, and the image of your sport, to learn what the heck you're doing...or don't hunt at all.

JRW

Edited by - jrw on 11/25/2002 15:34:03

RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??

knock-knock! Excuse me, just curious. I do not want to read all the posts. Can someone, in just a few words, sum up what the real point of this thread was and where you are at this time regarding what has been constructively acomplished and majority opinions.? :)

RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??

c903 - In a nushell ??

I presented the argument that compounds are to longbow/recurves what crossbows are to compounds - that being faster, harder shooting, more accurate - in other words overall more effective for people to use. I also defined by Webster's standard what a bow is and isn't, what arrows are and aren't and why a crossbow IS a bow as defined. I addressed that crossbows are still a close range weapon, and that the only thing advantageous to them (no drawing required while hunting) is offset by all the other comparisons to a compound. Archery season in Arkansas is just as long with just as liberal bag limits as ever WITH legalized crossbow.

In conclusion, I stated that I have no problems with crossbows, longbows, recurves or compounds in regular archery season. I see people all the time post anti-crossbow comments, but have yet seen a real good argument for it. JRW's arguement is classic - the " I've already told you why and can't say again" argument. I will say this - IF crossbows lead to a shorter archery season, IF they lead to a lesser bag limit, IF they are a negative to archery instead of a positive, then I will change my mind on them because surly we as a hunting community and as an archery community cannot afford this. In Arkansas I have not seen any indication this is so.

Arnie - " Wouldn't you guys agree that there is a definate learning curve when you migrate from compound to stickbow?"

I say yes, or else why wouldn't everybody shoot recurves/longbows ? They are harder, thats why.

" I've never talked to a traditional hunter who never missed an animal."

Nor I.

" I've never talked to a trad hunter who has not wounded an animal. The same can be said for compound shooters. "

I've never wounded one :) Quite a few archery folks miss/wound. That don't bother me terribly IF lessons are learned. Its called hunting. And I will also say this - if legalizing crossbows take poor compound shooters and result in fewer wounds/misses, I think thats a good thing.

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RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??

Sorta jumped the fence haven't we SC?

Here are but a few of the numberous posts by YOU on a crossbow thread on another BBS:

"Crossbows are doing it, they are luring out the worst hunters and allowing them to taint archery's image..."

"...you get people in archery season using the only piece of equipment that a lazy, undedicated, short-cuts to hunting kind of guy uses - and thats crossbows."

"I say the harm is the degredation of archery as a whole. We simply cannot have high wounding rates and slob hunters in our ranks and survive IMO. Crossbows invites those kinds of hunters - I've seen it, I know it. The examples I gave are from this year alone. Last year I saw the same thing, year before and year before that."

There GOBS more similar posts by you on that thread...here's the link:

http://www.bowsite.org/STICKBOW/TF/t...s=261&forum=23

I'm not gonna debate this w/you here any longer. Besides, you will undoubtedly have changed your mind (?) yet again by next week anyhow...

RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??

"Wouldn't you guys agree that there is a definate learning curve when you migrate from compound to stickbow?"

In terms of shooting the weapon? Yes. In terms of bowhunting? No. Allow me to explain...

Everyone has an effective range. Even the guy who's never shot a bow before has one (albeit a foot or two, maybe). Yes, "stuff" happens at times. We don't see that branch in the way, the animal jumps the string, etc. These things should be the exception, not the rule. If a bowhunter stays within their effective range, they don't go 1 for 12 with a couple of wounds.

High miss/wound rates are a function of people not staying within their abilities. One or two, here or there? That's one thing. One for twelve with a couple wounds? That's unacceptable...for any weapon.

"I've never talked to a traditional hunter who never missed an animal. I've never talked to a trad hunter who has not wounded an animal. The same can be said for compound shooters."

Exactly what I've been saying. It's not a function of the equipment that causes it...it's the "individual" behind the string that makes Ingrid Newkirk squeal like a giddy school girl on prom night with things like "1 for 12 with a couple wounds".

"6ptsika/JRW---How many animals have you not recovered after you loosed an arrow at them?"

That's a fair enough question, which I'll try to answer as best as I can. Prior to 1999 I didn't keep records of things, so I honestly couldn't give an accurate account. However...since that time, best as I can recall, I've gone 15-2-2, exclusively with recurves & a longbow.

My two misses were both string-jumps that got away good as gold. My two wounds were...

1) A shoulder blade hit that survived to let me watch him rub the heck out of a sapling later in the season (very unique rack, same buck).

2) A long story, but in short... I thought it was a great hit, but turned out to be a liver shot. Jumped the buck, tracked him for several hours and lost sign at the edge of a 20 acre cut field. Couldn't get permission (must have) to track through the woods accross the field and highway. No doubt the deer died, but was not recovered. My one and only kill-loss since 1985 when I first started bowhunting, and I still think we could have found him if the landowner had let us.

JRW

RE: Ban compounds from archery season - thoughts ??

arrowsmit - I went over that very thread today. As I have said, my opinions have changed and I think I was wrong before. I have been wrong many times before, aint afraid to admit it. I've had a lot of discussions on crossbows with a lot of people lately. My arguments on the above thead consisted of two things I think - #1 that crossbows are easier to use which is undoubtably true and #2 that a lot of slob and careless hunters use them. I realize its been difficult for me to get this across, but I'll try again - as a crossbow is easier to use vs a compound, so a compound is as easy to use vs a longbow/recurve. Here is the first post I made on that thread ...

Dawg - Is a crossbow not a tradional weapon in the sense that its history goes way, way back ? A compoud was born what, 60 years ago ? A crossbow was born hundreds of years ago.

For all ya'll calling it a cross-gun, it is not. A crossgun is not in Websters. A crossbow is NOT more efficient at casting an arrow either, as some of ya'll believe. I can shoot a compound, and did, much more accurately than a crossbow has ever shot for me.

Feret - Well said

As for my take on this issue, I live in Arkansas. Crossbows are legal. Its been my experience that crossbow hunters pick their crossbows up the day before they go hunting, shoot a few shot and then they're off. They don't know their weapons, they don't practice. Thats what crossbows do - they enable a person with little or no experience or practice to be able to hit that pie plate at 20 yards consistantly, much like a gun but a shorter range.

That brings us to the one point crossbow hunters try to make their argument on - its the distance of the shot, not the weapons used that matters. I'll challenge that too, by saying that an iron sighted hangun, 4 inch barrel, is not any more accurate than a crossbow at 20-30 yards. Therefore, using the pro-crossbow argument, iron sighted handguns with 4 inch barrels should be allowed in archery season, after all, it about distance, not weaponry, right ??

Crossbows have their place. My 67 year old Dad is getting close to having to use one - his shoulders just aint what they use to be. I wouldn't take away his love of mid-October whitetail hunting for something that he cannot help. But other than handi-cap licenseing for archery season, crossbows should be put into the muzzleloader season. If that happened, people wouldn't use them. As a contrast, if archery season and muzzleload were combined, many if not all of us here would still go to the woods carrying a longbow or recurve, wouldn't we ? Boys, that says volumes IMO. 

My opinon has changed now that its not for me to say how or why someone chooses to shoot a crossbow, a compound, a recurve or a longbow. Look at the example reylamb posted - compound shooters are just as apt to be careless and "slobby" as crossbows shooters. In that I believe now I was wrong.

" I'm not gonna debate this w/you here any longer. Besides, you will undoubtedly have changed your mind (?) yet again by next week anyhow..."

Yeah, I might if I am wrong and if the arguments against me prove it - I got no problem doing that.

JRW - I did take a compound to KS with me and am glad I did so. I took a bow I had never held and in a couple of hours was shooting damn good with it. Challenge ? Hardly. Heck my coworker can shoot the same compound AND DOES almost as good as I do. Anyway, after waiting for 2 years for a tag and missing two animals this fall and spending the $$ on the hunt I make no apologies for wanting it to be a successful hunt that ended in a filled tag with one of those huge KS bucks. I think I hunted 3 days with the compound, then hunted the rest with my longbow. I wouldn't change a thing in how I did that hunt. I also bought a new carbon High Country Triple S bow off EBAY at a very good price and it arrived while I was in KS. When I got home I sold it. So I don't have a compound and aint currently using one. I may again in the future, who knows ? I might also hunt with a crossbow, who knows ?

" No, I think it's called have enough respect for the animals you hunt, and the image of your sport, to learn what the heck you're doing...or don't hunt at all. "

That I will agree with, however its something that cannot be legislated or dictated or controlled.

I too would have jumped bandwagon on the guy shooting 1 for 12 a few months ago - look up past threads and you'll see some of my posts doing the same. But knowing him now, knowing he's a dang good shot, an accomplished hunter who DOES know what the heck he's doing I think differently ... he had a very bad run and missed a lot of animals for whatever reasons he did. Heck, that guy on the LW missed a grizzly, missed again, shot and hit one low the hit it again in the chest before recovering it, then hits a whitetail twice and losing it before connecting on another - thats a string of 5 shots out of the last 7 that went bad. Is he a poor hunter for that ? Doesn't know what he's doing maybe ? Certainly not, I suspect hes a great shot and a fine hunter and I respect the hell out of him for posting those hunts and taking the slack he did for what he did. But IF he were a rookie, if you didn't know him from Jack, ya'll would be questioning his skills, maybe his dedication and maybe the "respect" and "image" to not even be hunting with a recurve at all ??? If he's another 0 for 2 on his next hunt maybe even call for his license ?

Just more to think about.

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