how is this "hunting"
11-05-2006, 04:50 PM
#62
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Erie, Colorado
Posts: 1,530
RE: how is this "hunting"
JJ, Charles, Hillbilly,
I thank you guys for well thought out responses. Unfortunately, I have a busy schedule tonight. Therefore, I'll response ASAP.
Again, Thanks for putting some thought into it.
I thank you guys for well thought out responses. Unfortunately, I have a busy schedule tonight. Therefore, I'll response ASAP.
Again, Thanks for putting some thought into it.
11-05-2006, 05:28 PM
#63
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 36
RE: how is this "hunting"
ORIGINAL: JeremiahJohnson
nopardaid - Huck's game room is bigger than your whole house I'm betting. He's killed more using your type of hunting than you'll ever take. He has more experience than you'll ever hope to gain. That man can spot and stalk big bucks if he wants to - try that. He's the only man I know that arrowed a lion through the heart in the real wild Africa. You're talking through your hat son and probably aught to let it go and listen. If you do, you just might learn something that will expand your horizons and open doors to things you never imagined.
nopardaid - Huck's game room is bigger than your whole house I'm betting. He's killed more using your type of hunting than you'll ever take. He has more experience than you'll ever hope to gain. That man can spot and stalk big bucks if he wants to - try that. He's the only man I know that arrowed a lion through the heart in the real wild Africa. You're talking through your hat son and probably aught to let it go and listen. If you do, you just might learn something that will expand your horizons and open doors to things you never imagined.
11-05-2006, 05:37 PM
#64
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,288
RE: how is this "hunting"
good work nopardaid I didnt think to go there! I just returned to see if anything else had been written Im glad I stopped writing I was sick of all the condescending remarks from Huckleberry and johnson.
11-05-2006, 06:32 PM
#65
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location:
Posts: 29
RE: how is this "hunting"
ORIGINAL: hillbillyhunter1
I concede that some (if they are large enough) may be as "real" as no-fence hunting, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. So then it becomes an issue of acreage. Is 10,0000 acres OK? Is 1000 acres Ok??.
How about a 100??
Instead, it would be much easier to just eliminate the fence.
I concede that some (if they are large enough) may be as "real" as no-fence hunting, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. So then it becomes an issue of acreage. Is 10,0000 acres OK? Is 1000 acres Ok??.
How about a 100??
Instead, it would be much easier to just eliminate the fence.
11-05-2006, 08:29 PM
#66
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: WV
Posts: 4,485
RE: how is this "hunting"
GOOD LINK there nopardaid
I think I know the one you're talking about. Right along I-90 east of Missoula, big sign on the barn and lots of buff gently grazing by the interstate. If that's not it then it has to be another just down the road.
All you would have to have done was ask some of the locals. Most all Buffalo hunts are this way. My wife and I even commented that we may start "holstein hunt" on the family farm b/c of that idea
. Still, that is not really the typical canned shoot that I believe is the cause for much concern.
Obviously not very admirable mentality there. I'd like toput all those individuals behind the real "high-fence"
Glad to hear it.
Your statement seems a little contradictory here. I believe that even a disabled hunter in a wheel chair would have a real chance at tagging something on many different places--no high fence needed, it's just a matter of access to quality stands and waiting like the rest of us, which can easily be done.
I do agree that a high fence can be used---for exotics only, and even then I think that the landowner should have to pay the state for the native or estimated native animals that get caught behind the fence during construction and that these places should be highly and continually scrutinized by the DNR at the landowners expense and if that expense is cost-prohibitive to the entire operation........then open up Starbuck's coffe house instead.
you could always hunt pigs w/o the fence for fun.
or better yet, use your off season time to campiagn and organize against canned hunting
[/quote]
ORIGINAL: JeremiahJohnson
I've been on a bison "hunt" as you described. It was a place outside Gold Creek Montana. The fenced area was 800 acres, but it might as well been a corral. It was not much fun and I didn't consider it a hunt, rather just going to the grocery store.
I've been on a bison "hunt" as you described. It was a place outside Gold Creek Montana. The fenced area was 800 acres, but it might as well been a corral. It was not much fun and I didn't consider it a hunt, rather just going to the grocery store.
The owner misrepresented himself by implying we'd be hunting 42000 acres. He indeed has 42000 acres, but that was multiple times more than the price quoted - I was NOT a happy camper.
. Still, that is not really the typical canned shoot that I believe is the cause for much concern.
Part of the problem with Bellar and the rest of the canned hunt crowd in Indiana was they would not bargain or even discuss minimum acreage requirements. Drugging must be OUT - that was non-negotiable. The canned hunt crowd in Indiana couldn't even agree on a minimum acreage of 40 acres.
So, Kyle Hupfer, the head of the Indiana DNR played hardball and said that's the end of it. The court battles continue, but their days are numbered in Indiana and I'm part of that battle as a proud member of the Indiana Bow Hunters Association.
I detest canned hunts for able bodied hunters especially the marketing of cervids across state lines which increase the likelihood of spreading CWD. However, there is a placed for fenced hunting - with the right mixture of terrain, space, herd sustainability, etc. - for a controlled experience different from that available on other private and public ground.
I do agree that a high fence can be used---for exotics only, and even then I think that the landowner should have to pay the state for the native or estimated native animals that get caught behind the fence during construction and that these places should be highly and continually scrutinized by the DNR at the landowners expense and if that expense is cost-prohibitive to the entire operation........then open up Starbuck's coffe house instead.
If you haven't tried it, then you really should. My first experience was the aforementioned bison hunt and I was dead against it based on my experience. Huck changed my mind and I gave it another try in another facility that catered to bow hunters and difficult hunting. I'm so glad he did because I now have something to do in the off season that's truly a challenge and just plain fun.
or better yet, use your off season time to campiagn and organize against canned hunting
[/quote]
11-06-2006, 01:17 AM
#67
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Erie, Colorado
Posts: 1,530
RE: how is this "hunting"
Hillbilly,
Thank you for giving this issue great consideration! Here are my replies:
“but you have to concede that you know also what I'm talking about.”
Ok. I concede. I do know exactly what you are talking about. But, as prudent hunters can we not ask for references? Can we not weed out the good from the bad? I know I certainly do. I spend the time, research and make an honest effort to know exactly what I’m getting myself into. I, like you, am opposed to “Canned hunting”. It is certainly a misnomer (has as much to do with hunting as poaching has to do with hunting)! However, the differences between “Canned Hunting” and “high fenced hunting” can be/are enormous. I see (I think) you’re conceding that? I too have been there, done that. I find hunting deer from a tree stand or over bait to be child’s play- whether it’s behind fence or not. I prefer to be on the ground applying a spot and stalk technique whenever possible! And yet, not once have I ever made the statement that we should remove bait and tree stands from our society. Why is that? Do you think it has anything to do with having an open mind? Perhaps it'sa "live and let live" policy.
[/b]
“I can understand your feelings about this, BUT, I and many others "make it an issue" because to me, it does not represent hunting and because "Joe Public" may be too ignorant to know the difference. Obviously, many of these canned hunting operations would leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth who had a sense of decency, and, just as I expect others not to Drink and drive or rob grocery stores, I expect other real hunters not to hunt behind high fences. Of course my expectations are not always a deterrent for any of those situations....neither is the law always, but it is still appropriate to have a law and expectations”.
“Does not represent hunting”…That’s your opinion. I also see in your statement a lack of distinct separation between the two hunts in question-canned verses high fence. Let me get this straight. It’s ok to ambush deer from above, lay in wait at a feeder, or drive deer past shooters -that’s hunting (I see it as ambushing, ambushing and shooting. None of these has any thing to do with hunting)? Anything other than those styles listed above is criminal or conducted by non-real hunters. Really? Sorry dude, this hunter is going to hunt whenever and wherever I find: 1) time 2) Money ( I actually like buying licenses-it’s my way of giving back to the wildlife) 3) a high degree of difficulty, 4) a relatively safe environment away from the crowds, and 5) a location that provides fair chase. Did you notice that “success” was not on my list? For me, “success” is icing on the cake. Yep, I do not expect success! I have no desire to compare myself to anyone else. I could care less if my trophies make the book. Therefore, what threat am I to you?[/b]
[/b]
Now then, as far as Joe Public is concerned, let’s educate him. Let’s teach him to call a rat a rat (e.g. “Poachers” are commonly referred to as “hunters”. Why is that? Because we let the media get away with it!)! Surly he’s not that ignorant! With a bit of proper education, he’ll connect the dots.
[/b][/b]
[/b]"I concede that some (if they are large enough) may be as "real" as no-fence hunting, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. So then it becomes an issue of acreage. Is 10,0000 acres OK? Is 1000 acres Ok??.
How about a 100??" [/b]
[/b]
I’m sorry, exactly why does a line have to be drawn? Exactly how many acres sit around a feeder? In Colorado their use is illegal. You don’t see us telling you guys not to use them! It goes back to “you hunt your way and let me hunt mine!”
[/b]
Instead, it would be much easier to just eliminate the fence, Tree stands, feeders, cover scents, cameras, camo, guns, bows, knives, rocks…
[/b]
Do you see where this could go! Do you want to go down that path?
[/b][/b][/b]
"then does it matter to you if someone is raped or murdered 100 miles from your house???"
Here we go comparing “illegal” to “legal” acts again. However, it matters greatly and I hope they catch the perpetrator.[/b]
[/b]
If you had said “then does it matter to you is someone is having sex or dies 100 miles from your house???), I’d answer “there’s no need to pull out the fireworks”. I would be both happy and sad for the individuals involved.
[/b][/b]
I do understand what you are trying to ask. Education is the answer. Let’s teach Joe to call a rat a rat! Let’s hold the media accountable. When you see them call a “poacher” a “hunter” feel free to send them an email. Take offense; ask them to correctly use the English language. Make sure Joe knows how to connect the dots!
[/b][/b]
[/b]
"I agree that the TV camera and the commercialization of hunting have been a double edged sword, but am afraid you can not NOW go backwards regarding those issues. I believe only the market place demand will dicatate whether or not those things continue to be as large of a factor in hunting as they have been lately. But again, something I believe, we, as hunters, can and should do something about is canned hunting operations themselves, although it seems we have trouble as a group reaching consensus."[/b]
Why can we not go backwards? We can relive the issue ( on television they call it “instant replay”). After doing so, let’s teach Joe to call a rat a rat! Let’s hold the media accountable. When you see them call a “poacher” a “hunter” feel free to send them an email. Take offense; ask them to correctly use the English language. Make sure Joe knows how to connect the dots!
[/b][/b]
I think the market place has already demonstrated its ability to stop malignancy-W.H.A case in point
[/b][/b]
I am all for hunts which offer a high degree of difficulty and a certain level of fair chase. I believe in the big tent theory-it’s all relative!
[/b][/b]
Somewhere you mentioned hog hunting. So, I’m assuming you have hunted them. Do you find feral hogs to be as docile as penned raised hogs? If not, than surly you can see where I’m going with many feral animals. When you hunt free-range exotics (hogs and such), consider thanking a high fence owner for his loss. Let him know that his “part of doing business” just made you a happy man! They didn’t fall from the sky![/b]
Nonpardaid,
The Boone and Crockett Club, in its Fair Chase statement, advocates any hunting that is “the ethical, sportsmanlike and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals.”
HMMM… LIKE BRINGING THEM IN WITH BAIT, WEARING CAMOFLAGE, USING DIGITAL TRAIL CAMERAS, TREE STANDS, GUNS, CROSSBOWS, ARCHERY EQUIPMENT, COVER SCENTS, SCENT ELIMINATING CLOTHING, UV COLOR REDUCING SPRAYS…OH WAIT, THAT’S OK(?). Nothing unfair there! That’s pretty bogus and contradictory to me! You’re only a true hunter if you get down on the ground and scratch a deer to death…Right? It would be fair![/b]
Garbage like that keeps me from paying any attention to Boone and Crockett/Pope and Young.[/b]
Have fun on Ebay!
[/b]
Cowboy,
Are you back?I thought you were going away?
As for the rest,
I’ll do my best to answer more when I can.
Thank you for giving this issue great consideration! Here are my replies:
“but you have to concede that you know also what I'm talking about.”
Ok. I concede. I do know exactly what you are talking about. But, as prudent hunters can we not ask for references? Can we not weed out the good from the bad? I know I certainly do. I spend the time, research and make an honest effort to know exactly what I’m getting myself into. I, like you, am opposed to “Canned hunting”. It is certainly a misnomer (has as much to do with hunting as poaching has to do with hunting)! However, the differences between “Canned Hunting” and “high fenced hunting” can be/are enormous. I see (I think) you’re conceding that? I too have been there, done that. I find hunting deer from a tree stand or over bait to be child’s play- whether it’s behind fence or not. I prefer to be on the ground applying a spot and stalk technique whenever possible! And yet, not once have I ever made the statement that we should remove bait and tree stands from our society. Why is that? Do you think it has anything to do with having an open mind? Perhaps it'sa "live and let live" policy.
[/b]
“I can understand your feelings about this, BUT, I and many others "make it an issue" because to me, it does not represent hunting and because "Joe Public" may be too ignorant to know the difference. Obviously, many of these canned hunting operations would leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth who had a sense of decency, and, just as I expect others not to Drink and drive or rob grocery stores, I expect other real hunters not to hunt behind high fences. Of course my expectations are not always a deterrent for any of those situations....neither is the law always, but it is still appropriate to have a law and expectations”.
“Does not represent hunting”…That’s your opinion. I also see in your statement a lack of distinct separation between the two hunts in question-canned verses high fence. Let me get this straight. It’s ok to ambush deer from above, lay in wait at a feeder, or drive deer past shooters -that’s hunting (I see it as ambushing, ambushing and shooting. None of these has any thing to do with hunting)? Anything other than those styles listed above is criminal or conducted by non-real hunters. Really? Sorry dude, this hunter is going to hunt whenever and wherever I find: 1) time 2) Money ( I actually like buying licenses-it’s my way of giving back to the wildlife) 3) a high degree of difficulty, 4) a relatively safe environment away from the crowds, and 5) a location that provides fair chase. Did you notice that “success” was not on my list? For me, “success” is icing on the cake. Yep, I do not expect success! I have no desire to compare myself to anyone else. I could care less if my trophies make the book. Therefore, what threat am I to you?[/b]
[/b]
Now then, as far as Joe Public is concerned, let’s educate him. Let’s teach him to call a rat a rat (e.g. “Poachers” are commonly referred to as “hunters”. Why is that? Because we let the media get away with it!)! Surly he’s not that ignorant! With a bit of proper education, he’ll connect the dots.
[/b][/b]
[/b]"I concede that some (if they are large enough) may be as "real" as no-fence hunting, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. So then it becomes an issue of acreage. Is 10,0000 acres OK? Is 1000 acres Ok??.
How about a 100??" [/b]
[/b]
I’m sorry, exactly why does a line have to be drawn? Exactly how many acres sit around a feeder? In Colorado their use is illegal. You don’t see us telling you guys not to use them! It goes back to “you hunt your way and let me hunt mine!”
[/b]
Instead, it would be much easier to just eliminate the fence, Tree stands, feeders, cover scents, cameras, camo, guns, bows, knives, rocks…
[/b]
Do you see where this could go! Do you want to go down that path?
[/b][/b][/b]
"then does it matter to you if someone is raped or murdered 100 miles from your house???"
Here we go comparing “illegal” to “legal” acts again. However, it matters greatly and I hope they catch the perpetrator.[/b]
[/b]
If you had said “then does it matter to you is someone is having sex or dies 100 miles from your house???), I’d answer “there’s no need to pull out the fireworks”. I would be both happy and sad for the individuals involved.
[/b][/b]
I do understand what you are trying to ask. Education is the answer. Let’s teach Joe to call a rat a rat! Let’s hold the media accountable. When you see them call a “poacher” a “hunter” feel free to send them an email. Take offense; ask them to correctly use the English language. Make sure Joe knows how to connect the dots!
[/b][/b]
[/b]
"I agree that the TV camera and the commercialization of hunting have been a double edged sword, but am afraid you can not NOW go backwards regarding those issues. I believe only the market place demand will dicatate whether or not those things continue to be as large of a factor in hunting as they have been lately. But again, something I believe, we, as hunters, can and should do something about is canned hunting operations themselves, although it seems we have trouble as a group reaching consensus."[/b]
Why can we not go backwards? We can relive the issue ( on television they call it “instant replay”). After doing so, let’s teach Joe to call a rat a rat! Let’s hold the media accountable. When you see them call a “poacher” a “hunter” feel free to send them an email. Take offense; ask them to correctly use the English language. Make sure Joe knows how to connect the dots!
[/b][/b]
I think the market place has already demonstrated its ability to stop malignancy-W.H.A case in point
[/b][/b]
I am all for hunts which offer a high degree of difficulty and a certain level of fair chase. I believe in the big tent theory-it’s all relative!
[/b][/b]
Somewhere you mentioned hog hunting. So, I’m assuming you have hunted them. Do you find feral hogs to be as docile as penned raised hogs? If not, than surly you can see where I’m going with many feral animals. When you hunt free-range exotics (hogs and such), consider thanking a high fence owner for his loss. Let him know that his “part of doing business” just made you a happy man! They didn’t fall from the sky![/b]
Nonpardaid,
The Boone and Crockett Club, in its Fair Chase statement, advocates any hunting that is “the ethical, sportsmanlike and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals.”
HMMM… LIKE BRINGING THEM IN WITH BAIT, WEARING CAMOFLAGE, USING DIGITAL TRAIL CAMERAS, TREE STANDS, GUNS, CROSSBOWS, ARCHERY EQUIPMENT, COVER SCENTS, SCENT ELIMINATING CLOTHING, UV COLOR REDUCING SPRAYS…OH WAIT, THAT’S OK(?). Nothing unfair there! That’s pretty bogus and contradictory to me! You’re only a true hunter if you get down on the ground and scratch a deer to death…Right? It would be fair![/b]
Garbage like that keeps me from paying any attention to Boone and Crockett/Pope and Young.[/b]
Have fun on Ebay!
[/b]
Cowboy,
Are you back?I thought you were going away?
As for the rest,
I’ll do my best to answer more when I can.
11-06-2006, 01:27 AM
#68
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2006
Location: MA
Posts: 1,653
RE: how is this "hunting"
Some guys just can't kill a deer and have the money to go on a canned hunt. I guess if you have been skunked enough it becomes an option. I really don't fault them to much as long as they regognize that the way in which they shot the deer is not fair chase. Betcha they don't tell all their buds just how they did it. 
11-06-2006, 02:16 AM
#69
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: how is this "hunting"
ORIGINAL: Planter
Some guys just can't kill a deer and have the money to go on a canned hunt. I guess if you have been skunked enough it becomes an option. I really don't fault them to much as long as they regognize that the way in which they shot the deer is not fair chase. Betcha they don't tell all their buds just how they did it.
Some guys just can't kill a deer and have the money to go on a canned hunt. I guess if you have been skunked enough it becomes an option. I really don't fault them to much as long as they regognize that the way in which they shot the deer is not fair chase. Betcha they don't tell all their buds just how they did it.
11-06-2006, 05:38 AM
#70
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 242
RE: how is this "hunting"
Sylvan - wish I'd said that! ROFLOL!
Charlie - you still out there? Where did you go in Hawaii? I found the Axis on Molokai the hardest hunting in my life! Those deer have eyes like antelope. Forget spot-and-stalk. I tried ambush in the mango trees in some of the saddles, but got bored to death waiting and waiting. Only one guy in our group took one - he brought a rifle along and shot one through the heart at nearly 300 yards and called the shot (those navy snipers are goooooood). I'm not rich by a long shot, just lucky. My job sends me to Oahu a couple times a year and I found a way to do some bow hunting while there. You can island hop pretty cheap, but the hunting is quite challenging. Took a nice boar in the Pali on Oahu with my bow - man that was a TON of fun.
Charlie - you still out there? Where did you go in Hawaii? I found the Axis on Molokai the hardest hunting in my life! Those deer have eyes like antelope. Forget spot-and-stalk. I tried ambush in the mango trees in some of the saddles, but got bored to death waiting and waiting. Only one guy in our group took one - he brought a rifle along and shot one through the heart at nearly 300 yards and called the shot (those navy snipers are goooooood). I'm not rich by a long shot, just lucky. My job sends me to Oahu a couple times a year and I found a way to do some bow hunting while there. You can island hop pretty cheap, but the hunting is quite challenging. Took a nice boar in the Pali on Oahu with my bow - man that was a TON of fun.