where can the bows go next ?
 

Ok so just for fun i took out my old PSE the other day and took it to my local bow shop to show some of the younger guys what i had to start with.This PSE i got way back in 86 i am now 34 and still love archery.Anyway we where compairing my old PSE to my new Tribute it is wild to see how much has changed in the last 20 years.The question we all statred asking is whats next.We have short aTa bows long aTa bows bows that only weigh 5 lbs all set up we have so many different kinds of cams i can't even name them all,split limbs,solid limbs,tons of different kinds of strings and arrows.



So what's next what can they do to make these great bows even better? Any one have any idea's or things you would like to see improved

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

I ask the same question sometimes. I am almost 50 and I remember the early 70s when the compound first hit the market........ wow, they have come a long, long way! It is amazing and I often wonder myself, what is next? Not sure we can change it much more. Or can we?[8D]

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

i wish i could find my post about this
will edit when i find it

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1416294&mpage=1&key=&#141629 4 here it is

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Technology today is amazing, before long 400 fps will be the new speed that every is going crazy over. I would like to see some bows come out that are less expensive from the good name brand companies, like hoyt, mathews, and bowtech. There isnt much to change really.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Well I got ahold of a Mathews Ultra Max several years back. Not sure I ever chrono'ed it. Doesnt matter, 400, 300 or 200, as long as it keeps killing deer and holds together, that is what old Jeff is gonna use! :D[8D]

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

i agree my current bow only shoots 170.8 but if it kills a deer than im fine with it.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Well, with that bow and a Muzzy 100 grain I almost put it through the spine completely and no breaks on the blade, so no need to change! [8D]

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Just for fun I calculated the maximum possible speed for 70# peak, 30" draw, 8" brace. If the bow is 100% efficient, which of course is not achievable,it would propela 350arrow at 390.3 ft/sec and a 600 grain arrow at 298.1 ft/sec. Wow, given how far the technology has come in the last 20 years, I wonder how close we'll come to these numbers in the next 20 years.

Now if someone could come up with a 250 grainarrow that didn't loose it's initial velocity and the bow could handle itand I use the same conditions above I get 461.8 ft/sec. Now you're talkin!

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

I think we will start to see a time period when bow designs will again come back together to be more similar. Whether it is the limb design, riser geometry, cam design, etc.. I think for a time that almost all of the companies will have extremely similar models. That will last for a brief time before someone comes out with something truly revolutionary and we will again have the diversity that we have now.

I am also sure that newer materials will also make bow designs more durable and more efficient.

And lastly, ofcourse, prices will continue to increase. ;)

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

There is only so much speed that is available, given the current "restriction" of 5 gr/lb, a 400 fps bow is not possible. As stated above (I'd love to see how you calculated it, but it matches what I have seen elsewhere), it is against the laws of physics, UNLESS some new technology comes along that actually creates energy during the shot. Even with a 0% letoff bow, which climbs to max poundage very quick and stays there, it MIGHT be doable, but would be unshootable. You would need to get ALL friction out of the system: calbe slide, axles, string against cam grooves etc. It would be 100% dead quiet, no vibration/shock.

things I think you will see:
- I predicted something to quiet them down a couple years ago, poof, parallel limbs have done a good deal of this.
- riser design/construction to make the bow stronger and cheaper to remove any and all bend during the shot.
- Limb materials/design
- cam design to get the speed with a smoother draw curve

I would LOVEto see the price come down, this will take manufacturing technology, not bow technology. Or maybe materials/plastics technology.

We will see advancements in aerodynamics make BH flight easier (heading this way already), new arrow materials, for cheaper more durable arrows without the drawbacks of carbon/aluminum.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

You're right, energy can neither be created nor destroyed........high school physics lesson. If people are so obsessed with speed and power why not just go to shooting guns? Cheaper is the only way I wish they would go personally.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Actually it's pretty straight forward. If the bow is a 30" draw and an 8" brace height then the power stroke is 20 1/4 inches or 1.69 ft. If you pull 70# over the entire power stroke which gives the absolute maximum stored energy possible you get 20.25 x 1.69 = 118.42 ft/lbs of stored energy. Now if the bow transfers 100% of it's energy to the forward motion of the arrow, the amount of kinetic energy on the arrow is also 118.42 ft/lbs. Now since KE = 1/2mv^2 and we know the KE and the mass of the arrow you simply solve for the unknown v = (2KE/m)^.5 So in the example I used for a 350 grain arrow it comes out to 390.3 ft/sec and a 600 grain at 298.1 ft/sec.

Nope, not even if you could manage all that. At least not at 70# peak, 30" draw, 8" braceand 350 grain arrow.

I think that is called a firearm. ;) Actually that's not true either. Turtelshell is correct, you can't create energy, the best you can do is carry a bunch of it with you. That's what we do with a firearm. We carry the stored energy in chemical form in our ammunition. In archery, we carry it around in chemical form in our muscles. Unfortunately, even the strogest of us are pretty limited.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

I would like to see some bows come out that are less expensive from the good name brand companies, like hoyt, mathews, and bowtech. There isnt much to change really.

I agree with this position as well. It would be great to see the big companies come out with some more affordable rigs. As far as tech stuff goes, not sure how much more can be made that one can actually say"Product X makes me a better archer"

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Ain't gonna happen. They've got to charge a bunch more than what bows 'should' cost in orderto pay for all those bows those idiotspeed freaks are tearing up with ultralight arrows and sending back for warranty work. [8D]

The sensible guys who don't abuse their equipment and shoot moderate weight arrows, who never have to make a warranty claim,are actually buying several sets of limbs and spare parts for the speed freaks every time they buy a bow. As long as the consumer demands more and more speed - for reasons totally beyond MY comprehension -then the prices will continue to skyrocket.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Yea, but ain't the customer service just grand???...!!!!!

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Ahh, there's the key "over the entire power stroke" which means the force/draw curve is a flat line, no build up, no let off. So in this model the only way to raise energy is to increase the power stroke, so DECREASE the brace height. Like I said, "unshootable" [&:]

I've read about designs in arrows to increase penetration, basically a small weight in the shaft that when the shaft hit the target, the weight would slam forward giving it a secondary kick into the target.

Personally I think the biggest detraction to getting into bowhunting today is the cost, hard to find a bow for under $250-$300. Very easy to find a "not top of the line" bow for $700-$800.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Maybe someone will invent a wheel and pulley system for my stickbow that makes it easier to hold at full draw...... ;)

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Sylvan's right, there's a ceiling on what a bow can do, because there's only so much potential energy stored in the device at full-draw. As he explained, 100% efficiency is impossible, but that is the limit on the bow's output.

However, if you could design a cam that would allow you to draw TWICE for one shot, you could, in theory, store 2x118 foot/pounds of energy, and effectively nearly DOUBLE the output.

Think about a pump-action BB gun. The airtank housed inside the airgun stores energy without releasing it until the trigger is pulled. If you pump it once, you might get 100 f.p.s. If you put two pumps in, and uncork it, you'll get maybe 200 f.p.s. - the same would apply to bows.

So where I'm going with this, is if you could engineer a cam that would allow you to draw the bow several times to "store energy" and unleash it all with one shot, you could overcome the 400 fps "ceiling." I'm thinking something along the lines ofa "ratcheting" cam that would compress the limbs repeatedly, and unleash the fury all at once.

I shouldn't think out loud, because it makes me sound like a total idiot.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Now that isa trulyinteresting idea quicksilver. My bet is they would find a reason to outlaw it. Maybe not though. I can see the argument both for and against. Cons would say that you are effectively "cocking" it with each stroke.Pros would say no, as long as your release mechanism never leaves the string and tension is continuously maintained it's not cocking at all. The "cocking" obsticle does seem kind of difficult to overcome though. Do you think it's possible? If it's like the air gun, it is essentially "cocked" with each stroke. Anyway, neat idea, if you could make it work I think you would become a very rich man!

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

You got it! The maximum amount of energy you can have for a given peak weight and a given length of power stroke is a flat force draw curve. That's why I qualified the answer with peak weight, brace and draw length. When you define peak weight, draw length and brace you have defined the maximum window to work in. Of course your right it's notshootable. Not only that it isn't buildable either. We can only approach it as a limit.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

I'd tend to think that it would take a pretty revolutionary cam to do it, and I'd think it would be more like a ratchet than a cam, but the more I mull it over, the more I think that it's possible. The physics are there, so really, all one would need to do is devise a simple machine to make it happen.

I know that draw-locking devices are illegal in many parts, but really, this wouldn't be a "draw lock" per se - it would be more of a potential energy storage device. Definitely something that the archery world has never seen.

Come on all you engineers out there, this is our shot to revolutionize bowhunting as we know it. Besides, it's Friday, and I wanna think about something other than work.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Well you've got me thinking about it. I think it's a great idea! I do think the "cocking" problem is a major problem to overcome though. At first glance it doesn't seem possible to me. I'm assuming (and maybe that's my badparadigm) that one would pull back and then "something" would have to hold the energy in the limbs while the tension goes to zero as the archer reaches forward for the next pull. I don't see how that wouldn't be considered "cocking". Of course it's hard to think "out of the box".

Wish I could hang around and see what other ideas come out here but I have to take off...

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of a cam that has two "valleys" in the draw cycleand the string could be initially drawn to full draw (at the second valley), while a separate ratcheting mechanism takes the slack out of the cables, then, the string is let down, into the first "valley," while the "ratchet" holds the cables in place, keeping the limbs squeezed.

Then, the second draw would squeeze the limbs even further, and upon release, the "ratchet" would unlock somehow (centrifugal force, maybe?), and the limbs would snap back to their original position. So, you'd never be actually letting the draw down completely. You'd instead be doing a full-draw, then letting it halfway down, andcoming back to full-draw again.

Obviously, this would require unconventional thinking w/regard to string/cable setups as well.

Is this total craziness, or does this make sense to anybody else?
Thanks for agreeing with me there, Sylvan, even if you were just jokin' around, it made me feel like I wasn't losing my mind.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

I think if you have a draw/letdown/draw motion, you will get serious uproar. How about some type of pulley mechanism, you know with certain pulleys you pull more than the object moves, but you pull with less force than needed (you know that pesky force*distance equation). what if you could reverse it somehow? Pull the same draw length you pull now, but at a HIGHER poundage, but imparts more stored energy into the limbs? Now that I just re-read that, not sure that's any different than just upping your draw weight, oh well... was a thought...[:'(]

sometimes the laws of physics just seem to get in the way ;)

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

I agree Bob, the Draw/letdown/draw cycle wouldn't be very practical for hunting, but could be useful for target/3-d guys.

For hunting, you'd have to have a system devised that would allow you to take a full draw, and let it down. Then you'd need to be able to hang the bow up with the limbs still squeezed,where you could draw again later, to double the stored energy, and takeyour buck when he walks by.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

More forgiveness and quieter will go farther than speed.

OH by the way, ratcheting would not do much other than extend the distance traveled by the limb-tips during the shot. Creating alot more noise and vibration. Also pushing the peak weight of the 2nd draw cycle up even higher, while the energy exerted on the the arrow would be minimally effected. Afterall, the power stroke of the shot will remain the same. Find a way to extend the power stroke and you transfer more energy to the arrow. I will post a sketch tonight when I get home.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

I don't know, Dave. The benefit wouldn't be inthe limb travel, per se. It would be that you'd be storing more energy in the limbs themselves, which would result in increased limb flexion - a side-effect, if you will. As you pointed out, the second draw cycle would be heavier, but it would stand to reason that could be eliminated or minimizedin the cam design. If nothing else, the first cycle could draw at #45, and the second cycle at 70#.

I get the feeling there are some dangerous minds at work here. LOL

LIke anything else, the initial design would probably be a rattle-trap, but over time, things get tweaked and modified. Henry Ford didn't build the GT40 on his first try, ya know.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

i think all of this aside i just want a good quiet bow that can shoot my arrow fast enough to put some yummy food in my belly,and i have that. I am 34 and have been bow hunting since i was 10,compaired to my old recurve and my first pse compound i got that you just about need a tow truck to draw it back.i agree with most of you tho it's all about the $. stop spending 2 million a year trying to make a great bow just a bit faster or quieter and make it so everyone can afford to buy a great bow with out having to take out a loan or take food out of thier kids mouths

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

mudd dawg, I 100% agree with you. Prices are OUTRAGEOUS! I commented to a guy at gander about it and his comment was "you pay for better technology and better equipment" Ol' Henry Ford started with the Model A not as a superior product, as there were many many better cars of the day. But his was affordable, and that is one of the main things keeping people from joining this wonderful sport. That and the cost of decent hunting grounds. I have a friend that was not raised in the outdoors but has sat through a few hunting shows at my house and even tried some venison I made. He decided that he'd like to try it. Only problem is that he has a family of 3 living on an income of 1400 A MONTH. He just doesn't have the cash. Luckily my family has land in west texas and gave me permission to take him on a hog hunt. So at least he'll get to experience it.

It's all business and its becoming corporate. Even the smaller companies are getting that way. People say about Remington for years that the bean counters have taken over... its the same thing for bow companies.

As for the dbldraw system we've been discussing. Unless you design a draw assist device(a lever or pully system), the felt weight will be the same as the actuall weight pulled. As someone stated earlier, energy can only be transferred, not created. 80# of force to the arrow = 80# of weight on the draw.Then the person still has to hold that weight. I still beleive that the best way is to extend the power stroke. Longer arrows it will require but I beleive it is possible.

I've got an Idea for the ratchet-cams. Something spring loaded like the clutch on an A/C compressor on a car.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Computerizedinternal gyroscopic stabilization with lock-in aiming and thought controlled release.:eek:

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

OOHHHH

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

LMASO:DVery funny Man

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Thanks for the lesson!

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Actually, I just noticed a dumb mistake in the explination. It's not 20.25 x 1.69 but rather it should have been 70 x 1.69 = 118.42 ft. lbs. Sorry about that!

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

Lighter weight risers with limbs that store more energy. New materials for strings that will reduce stands and stand size creating more speed. Cams that preload the limbs and increase energyover theentire powerstroke.

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

That does add up better. Just saved it for further referencing and would have been a little confused then.:D

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

I'll keep my 271 fps and put it in the vitals!

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

What about a little nano technology?

Some composite carbon-tungsten alloy risers that weigh less than 1 lb with a material structure that counteracts vibration at the molecular level? Granted if they built one today, it would cost about 1.5 billion each :D But that sort of technology is coming.

Nano machines are also being developed that can react to light. Eventually you could have a camo coating that mimics your surroundings like a chameleon just like in "Predator."

And how about a string and cables made of something like spectra fishing line? 1/5th the diameter and mass with all of the strength? That would have to be good for a few fps? ( I know, spectra cuts easily, I'm just using that as an example!)

What about an inertia driven expandable head, maybe with a mercury core that deploys the blades sort of like an airbag?

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

I think we may start too see Titanium risers,very light and tough. Unfortunately also very expensive[>:]

RE: where can the bows go next ?
 

I suppose I could see that happening. I'm wondering if we don't come out with some sort of carbon/fiber riser, reinforced by something. Dude, I don't know where the heck there going with it. I'm not an engineer and don't intend to be. I just like enjoying the ride;)