The great antler debate continues.
 

Here in Missouri, the Conservation Department changed its lawsin 29 counties stating a legal buck has to have 4 points of at least one inch on one side. As you can imagine, there have been some heated debates about this. As I was reading a magazine last night, a gentleman from northern Missouri was all in a bunch over this. He says that it is the beginning of the end of hunting, and that since he can no longer shoot a small buck, he cannot as effectively provide food for his family. That is the condensed version.
Now, here is my thought, I want to see if you agree or disagree with me. Yes, probably the first year or two he will have to pass up several "illegal" bucks. But, wouldn't it stand to reason that after a couple of years it will even out, and there will be more "legal" bucks to shoot anyway, thus making his opportunity for a harvest higher again?
I know I had to let 3 bucks walk last year because of this, and yes, it was frustrating, but, I know in the long run it will be worth it. Everybody's idea of a trophy buck is different. Myself, I have never shot a buck with my bow, so a 2x2 would be a trophy. But not for others. It is my opinion that this law was established to grow bigger bucks, (obviously) but not so much to benefit the heard as to bring in out of state dollars for tags.

Do you support this type of rule, or not?

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In way i would support it to get bigger bucks but in another way I dont becauseif some little kid is hunting for his or hers first deer it will be HARD to tell them they cant shoot it because it isn't big enough

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i would say no. i would go for this law, but it leaves out the only thing. QDM, if everyone goes and shoots a younger deer that has the very minimum antler requirements. then the entire herd suffers from bad genetics. if the deer can't grow to its optimum genetic level then he will never breed a doeto that level. i my self have started to try and practice QDM over the last 2 yrs now. i think it will start to effect theherd this year mainly, because a friend and i have chosen certain bucks to take. we have taken outall of the 6 pt deer that we have seen, only to have better herd genetics.this last year we took out a deer that was suffering from a old wound and was limping very badly, he was a 8 with a HUGE blood clot in his neck and around his heart. his shoulder bone was nearly exposed, and looked like he had been shot before, havign missing a peice of meat between one of his ribs. in the long run he might have produced some good genetics, but not being able to breed that year,we decided to take him out.

im not saying that everyone has to practice QDM, but i think it would be better if everyone tried. thislaw also doesn'tallow first timers and small kids to go out and killtheir first buck. they don't care if the deer has a huge rack or some unusual thing going on with the rack.it is the fact that they shot a buck.

Zach

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PA has a similar law. most of the state is restricted to 3 points per side. The western part of the state there are a few WMU's that are restricted to 4 points. Within the past 2 years I've notice more bigger racked buck. Which was nice. As far as youth hunting goes. I believe youth hunters in PA aren't restricted but the AR.

Also like to state that genetics have NOTHING to do with age. The same genes any animal is born with they will die with, they don't change, ever! So allowing a young deer to breed or an older deer to breed will have nothing to do with the offsprings rack. Now as deer get older, like in humans, there are chances of mutations in the offspring. A yearling can breed a doe and the offspring will have the same chance of having a nice rack, as a doe that was breed by an older buck. Assuming that the younger buck and older buck have comparable genetics. Taking out the six point bucks may not be good QDM if the bucks are young. Who's to say that next year they wouldn't be 8 pt or better.

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Your scenario presumes that ARs work the way you think they will . In order for that to happen all of your "brown and downers" would have to cooperate , a rather unlikely prospect . Implementing ARs only in specific counties rather than statewide will only encourage poaching or game waste if somebody shoots the wrong deer .

I live in a state that doesn't impose ARs other than a one buck rule , and I love it . The only thing I dislike more than somebody other than DNR telling me what to shoot is somebody doing it on the pretext that it "helps the herd" or "improves the hunting" . When I hit the woods I should be able to determine what looks best to me , and if that happens to be a forkie for the freezer then that should be my choice if it's legal .

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No, I don't support it because not every buck out there is genetically disposed to growing a minimum of 7 or 8 antler points. If these "lesser" deer can't be removed from the herd, they continue to pass on their genes. Plus, you're removing the "better" deer, possibly before they can pass on their genes. It's not a good idea. Also, you're leaving older bucks that may be past growing that many points, and those deer still make delicious steaks and burgers.

If the state really wants to grow bigger bucks, decrease the number of antlered tags and increase the doe tags. You'll get bigger bucks in a couple of seasons, and people who depend on venison for food will still fill their freezers.

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I have never, i mean NEVER agreed on the "4x4" management rule. why? because you see many...MANY young 1 1/2 year old deer with 4 points on each side, so it would make it legal to shoot a young deer, but they are trying to get bigger, more mature deer? If the states had any sence at all, they would switch it to either and antler size limit or an age limit. This 4x4 rule is just plain idiotic, and I laugh at every state that uses it. There are many older deer that have less then 4 points on one side as well. this year I shot a management buck that had 3 points on each side. U have to use logic while practicing QDM. Do what the outfitters do, look at the results for god sakes. 90% of the outfitters use an antler size limit. 4x4 is just stupid, you cannot manage the herd with this lame excuse that they use. Use age and/or a size limit...ie 125inch minimum. The states are ruining the management plan for mature bucks who are under 8 points, because U arent allowed to shoot them, which means they breed, which means that they spread their bad genetics. Cmon DNR, use some common sense.

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It wouldn't be "hard" to tell them they can't shoot it because it is too small...it'd beeasy tellthem they can't shoot it because its ILLEGAL.

I just don't see it working if you have to tell someone they have to do it this way...Goes back to educating people on what makes the herd stronger.

I disagree with "AR"s because you've just made a target out of your best specimens leaving the worst to 'further' the herd.

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DeerSlayer, you assume that everyone can judge age with 100% accuracy - I'd hate to lose my license for a year because the 3x3 buck looked 3 1/2 and turned out younger. The only accurate way to judge age as we all know is by their teeth and I've never seen a deer smiling in the woods - nor do they have photo id. ;)

I'm not necessarily for the antler restriction, but not necessarily against it either. As for the gentleman who can "no longer shoot a small buck, [therefore] cannot as effectively provide food for his family" He can still harvest does can he not? Or is his pride so big that he'd rather starve the family?

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Hazcon7- 2 Years ago I saw a deer smile after I missed him twice. haha

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For evidence that ARR's are working, you need look no further than PA. I have quite a few friends who hunt there and they ALL have told me about how many nice bucks they are now seeing compared to seeing a couple of dinks scattered among the tons of does. There are some very nice bucks coming out of PA now and that will only get better.

I realize that some younger hunters might miss an opportunity to tag a spike or forkhorn, but how is a very young buck any greater a success than a nice doe of equal or greater size? Having a tiny set of antlers does nothing to improve the harvest IMO.

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Wel not everyone can determine whether or not its a point either guy. Im telling you right now, that no matter what they do, it isnt going to work, so why have them? And If U arent aware, I have NEVER seen a wild yearling that scored over 125, have you? ok then. Why wouldnt this method work to get bucks bigger, or at least get a little more mature? Outfitters do it, why cant anyone else.

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Why can't everyone else??????? Because PA has 1 million hunters that hit the woods on the 1st day of deer season. You want to hold the seminar to teach these old timers (no offense to anyone) how to judge a rack at 150 yards. AR are working in PA and while everyonre has a valid point for or against AR they still remain the most general management tool that everyone can understand.

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forcing antler restrictions on a general population is bad. Its NOT herd management, its trophy management and not good IMO.

As for the opening statement ? It forces guys who want meat to poach deer, plain and simple. Arkansas passed antelr restricitons 5-6 years ago and the little bucks being shot and nody saying a word about it is in the thousands IMO

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deerslayer said it right in his last post. i know i've never seen a yearling scoring over 125. plus howdo the outfitters get great bucks every year. from QDM or the antler scoring of 125 min. i know around where i hunt and the outfitters i've talked to havealways saidthey harvestgood bucks in the numbers they do is because they can manage them how they want. not how the state tells them to.

and forKevin1. i don't care whatyou say about my postor what u quote outof it. for all i know, is thatyou saidthat you didn't like the law and i said i din't either. therefore we can harvest or practice QDM however we want to. if you like killing spikes and forks and what not. go ahead, but i don't and i was expressing my opinion on how i practice QDM. i never once told anyone how they shouldmanage their herd of deer.i shoot what i think is a good deer to harvest and you shoot whatyou think is a good deer.

no one...and i mean no one has ever came up to me and said go out and poach a deer. and if they did i would tell them to **** off. and at 150 yds...thats what binocs are for. i use them and can tell what i think is a good deer to take. and lots of other people shoot deerwell past 150 and they can tell a good deer from a fork or spike. maybe not exactly how old they are, but 1/2 a yr or so off.

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Why wouldnt this method work to get bucks bigger, or at least get a little more mature? Outfitters do it, why cant anyone else.


How many average gun hunters could judge a rack for score especially at the moment of truth, because i could tell you the majority of people in Pa wouldnt even knwo where to begin when scorign or judging a rack. And as for using age, thats just downright impossible to introduce to a whole state. AR are the management tool that can be best accepted my hunters in this state, and many others,and they seem to be working great so far. As for juniors, seniors, and members of milatary can shoot whatever buck they please.

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There is no law that will ever help on this. U have to use your own judgement, NO LAWS, U are the only one who can determine if its a shooter or not. If its a big mature 6 point that needs to come off the herd, then I am damn well gonna take it off the herd. Luckily, there is no Law in IL yet. If there is, Im not going to be the one who will let a big 6 point pass because the law requires that I SCREW up my quality deer herd. If its gonna ruin my chances at getting a bigger buck on down the road, then Im doing what I need to do. There should be no Law, there should be a thing called common sense, but since about 60% of the hunters cant do the smart thing and let little bucks walk, the rely on a dumb law that solves nothing at all. Its all they can do. But I am still against AR's for management purposes. Do what U will, but dont go to the state when U have a bunch of little 6 points runing around because U couldnt take off the bad apple in the herd because there was apoint limit.

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Im a taxidermist by trade, so to me, I dont want to shoot a small buck. Thats personal, as I handle better racks all day long, so the need to have the antlers isnt the same to me. Im holding out for something bigger, and doing so by choice. I realize the buck I might refer to as a dink is a decent buck to someone out there, so I respect that.

Yet, as a person who understands management, I wish we could protect an age group, too. I think Windsorarcher and deer slayer nailed it...I agree with them both. Slayer mentioned the system failing, and heres another way it would. After a couple years of protecting young buckstheyd need to re-evaluate what to protect, as the herd would be growing, under their theory, and young bucks would appear bigger. I dont support a point system, rather a score system. I will admit that its not easy to evaluate, but then again, I dont want AR anyway.

I just have a hard time having them tell me its "illegal". Fishing uses "slots" to protect certain age groups, I know, but fish dont mature at the same rate as a whitetail either. Deer wont be shot out. Reduced yes, but not eliminated.

I guess Id rather educate the hunting majority and let the chips fall, and see modest gains for those who CHOOSE to let the skippers walk. Personally, I take great pride in watching one walk...even though Im thinking the next guy it walks by will pound it! Im one of those who is in favor of less animals = better quality though too...not a popular theory with many others.

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The main reason PA began ARs was due to massive complaints by hunters that PA deer were 125 Lbs spike and "Y" bucks. Obviously it shows that people weren't allowing bucks to grow to adults (not all hunters and deer.. just in general). So PA implimented the law to allow deer to mature a little and develop nicer racks. It's working, and I personally like it. It's nice to see deer that have a descent size to them (body and antler).

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Bill i feel you on this one and all the others who don't want the AR law. i personally think a great hunt is when i watch lots of deer walk under my stand as apose to kill them. just me tho. killing a big buck is great in all, but i think i learn more about the deer when i watch them in person than on TV. i have a friend who is a deer taxidermist and said to me that he doesn't nessisarily like to mount small deer, but will. he says it is all money. although what he loves about it is that he gets to mount these quality big bucks racks.

all i have to say is if AR come across IL "ALL HELL WILL BREAK LOOSE"

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I like the AR we have here in PA. MOre specifically in southeast PA where I am we have some nicer bucks now because of it. Nw we need to cut down the antlerless licenses

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The Missouri AR law doesn't apply to the youth season, so the kid out on there first hunt can kill a spike.
We have a lot of does, so if what you are after is meat you still have
a great chance of filling your freezer. The jurry is still out if it will work here, that is why they are doing the trial in 29 countys. This will be the second year, I was kind of surprised they didn't expand it
to more counties this year. I for one hope it helps bring the doe/buck ratio of the herd more in balance and we will see more mature bucks

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Well, only thing I can say is..........letem go so they can grow.;)

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Shoot does. Big does aren't hard to come by, and they taste the same or better.

Age has nothing whatsoever to do with genetics. Deer, like humans, die with the same genetic code that they are born with no matter how old they are.

While I think that antler point restrictions are stupid because theyprevent the taking to older deer with small racks,antler score restrictions are even worse. How exactly isthe average joehunter supporsed to score a live deer accurately to ensure that it complies with the law? Sure, outfitterson private lands (many of the high fense variety)can use this type of requirement because they, or a guide representing them, is right there to make the final shoot/no shoot call and bears the responsibilityif they misjudge. To impose such a system by law wouldturna lot of honest hunters into poachers due to misjudgements in rack size (aka ground shrinkage). Howwould you like to be the one toldby a DNR officer, "well sir, your buck only scores 123 1/2" so I'm afraid I'm going to have to cite youfor poaching this animal and take your gun/bow and truck because you were 1 1/2" off youreyeball measurement. Sorry, but I'm just doing my job."

Legal antler restrictions in any form are the proverbial big s*** sandwich and all hunters will have to take a bite.

Mike

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I can only pray they bring AR's to where I hunt.
You guys that are so against it I notice you are from Pike Co, IL. Well duh....you have one of the best herds in the country. Your 1.5yr olds are probably bigger than most of the deer where I hunt. Come and hunt on ground where a 5.5yr old might make p&y....then you'll want AR's.
PA is a prime example that it can and does work. I agree, it may not be the absolute perfect solution....but it is probably the most practical and enforcible one available. Also, I belive PA has a youth law or something...so the young hunters can still take a buck of any size. Maybe someone from PA can elaborate on that, I'm not 100% sure.

I say "Let em go so they can grow!"

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if they go with the 125 min. score restriction, then they will have to guve people a bit of a lee way on them. like lets say 10 inches. i never meant for people to have to guess the deers score right on the dot.

all the outfitters around where i hunt don't sit right next to the person in the stand and tell them to shoot. even if they do around where you hunt, im sure they let the hunter guess if he is big enough first. then they go from there.

still this year in IL will be bull****, because they did away with check stations and won't be able to measure the deer or check if it has the min. ammount of pts. in doing so there will be more poachers in the woods killing deer than ever before. people who process their own meat can kil a buck and tag it as a doe. the only way they will catch people is when they take the meat to a processer.

don't you see though WV hunter, we have such good deer genes and QDM around in pike co., that that is the reason we don't want the AR's. where some people hunt, it may be the only thing that works, but where i hunt in Pike, it will make it worse. if they put AR's in IL i don't think it will be across the entire state, only the counties with low #'s and poor buck genes.

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I agree 100%...you don't need it. And I;m not picking on you guys from that area. It's just that you can't possibly understand hunting in an area that DOES need it.
But just because you are lucky enough to live in one of the best areas in the country, doesn't mean that it is not an effective and needed tool in other places. If I had to wait on a 125" deer, I would never have killed a buck in my life to date. I may not be the best hunter out there, but I hunt hard and have for a long time. I have killed several mature deer and that is my goal each season. I don't live in Mo, but I can only assume they are doing it there for a reason. I think the biggest thing AR's do, is add to the Doe harvest. Many areas need the doe pop reduced. Some people hunt to hunt, and meat is meat. A doe to them is just as good as a buck.

Another thing I think is a good idea, is earn-a-buck like they do in some states/counties. I would love to see that where I hunt, as there are way to many does.

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That's not how the law and legal systemworks. If it gave 10", then why not set the limit at 115"? I guarantee you that not even 10% of hunters can judge a rack +/- 10", 100% of the time. The answer is not in antler restrictions thatturn honest hunters into criminals becauseof unrealistic requirements that are hard to judge in real world conditions mandated bya bunchof antler chasers thatare upsetthat trophy deer, by definition, are(and ought to be) rare and prized.

If every deer were record-book sized, then there'd be nothing special about taking one and no point to keeping track.It's like grade inflation for deer. A 150" rack isn't worth anything if everyone else has one hanging on their wall too.

I hope that Iowa has the good sense to never change deer hunting to antler hunting.

Mike

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I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about kid , the only reply I've made was to Mobowhunter's starting postand I didn't quote anyone . Park your attitude , I haven't done anything to you .

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First of all im glad that we still have people involved in hunting that are passionate, regardless of your stance on the issue. Second, Mississippi State conducted research on their 4pt rule and found that in certain parts of the state the overall rack size decreased. To agree with the PA hunters I have seen the rewards of the AR rule. I just try to shoot one a little bigger than my last, by the way I couldn't judge a 125 anyway.

Morty3

Can't we all just get along. --- Rodney King

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Kid? how do you get at that i'm a kid? i may not be the oldest person on this website, but i'm sure not the youngest.thats just how it is in the real world, the older think they can just push the younger adults around...but i'm not that way and i sure knowDeerslayerisn't one like that either!one you sat there and said out in the blue, "The only thing I dislike more than somebody other than DNR telling me what to shoot is somebody doing it on the pretext that it "helps the herd" or "improves the hunting". in other words...refering to me as if i were telling people what to shoot and not to shoot. i never told anyone what to kill and never have. ihave only given my opinion and try to get more people to practice QDM like me and lots of other people out there. if this isn't how you meant it to be written, then i apolagize.

Driftrider, when i go out to hunt i don't just hunt for world class bucks. i hunt for the enjoyment of being in the outdoors. granted all of us here would probably love to kill and huge buck. and i do too, but i hunt for does too. last year all i killed was does, and the year before 1 buck and 1 doe.the way i see it it should be 2 does for every buck someone kills. what i am saying is if where ever thay set these AR's at, some need them more than others, and some don't need them at all. but the score system, if they don't like giving people lee ways, then the hell with them. i'm sure they will give a lee way other wise it will be to hard for people to judge. that or they could give people warnings like cops do for tickets. kill more than 1 under min. score...then you get fined or whatever they want to do. i would go for the min. score over the 4 pt law.

if i could just express one more time. i don't mean to offend people unless i feel like they are offendingme. sorry to anyone that felt like i offended them.

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You, that I know of, have offended no one. But, I do believe he was making reference to the lawmakers telling him that, not you....

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Well in Mo if your are just after venison ,simply buy a 7.00 doe permit and shoot a doe. I agree. Save your other permit for a nice buck.
Chuck

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This has gotten out of hand. Please, stop critisizing and just read opinions and dont pick out any certain names or quotes, I am against AR's, thats all Im gonna say, and Im going to give reason to back that up, if you don't like it, Im sorry, but I have never been for AR's because you cant manage a mature buck with small antlers, therefore, you cannot manage the herd. The whole point of AR's is to manage the herd. I was giving out suggestions on a practical solution to a problem, I did not intend to cause an uproar. Your right, some people can't judge antler sizes, but what determines if its a point? Are you going to zoom in and see if its over one inch? No, thats why you use common sense. Ask yourself, "if I shoot this buck, will it effect the herd?" I am fed up with AR's becuase I have seen so many yearlings with 8 points. If you really care enough about your deer herd, then by god, do what is best for it, not for the state. If there is a mature 6 point, then take it, you will pay in the long run when you have tons of 3x3's running around. The only solution is your judgement.

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I assume their using the antler restriction to increase thedoeharvest? Cant this gentleman feed his family with a freezer full of doe meat?
I dont personally believe any governing body over the wildlife would enact a antler restriction to produce big bucks to increase non resident revenue. If there is such people, they dont belong in their position.

edited to add....

Wow , after reading through the entire thread , there seem to be quite a few folks who don't understand why antler restrictions are being implemented.

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Yes, he absolutely could feed his family on does. That was my point exactly. This guy was saying this is the end of hunting, and that AR's are just a way of handcuffing the law abiding citizen. Yes, the DOC intended to up the harvest of does. But, I stand by my statement of increasing revenue, and this is why. Look at Kansas, Iowa, and Illinois. Those are 3 of the most popular deer hunting destinations this side of Texas. Why? Because they hold monster whitetails. Out of state tags, as you know, are considerably more expensive than resident tags. The state has "sold" nothing more to a NR, thus increasing revenue. Perhaps this is just an added bonus, and was never the real intent of the DOC.

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Like I said above , if it (antler restrictions) was "the real intent" of the DOC to just increase revenue , then your DOC is not doing their job.
My guess is , their trying to increase doe harvests by forcing hunters to let small bucks pass and take does instead.
The other alternative is to have earn a buck , or worse yet ,a buck tag lottery , which people may very well see soon enough if they dont start doing their part in bringing down the doe population.

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I'm currently lobbying for a law where you cannot shoot anything less than 5 points on one side, or an inside spread of 21" or a gross score of 180" P&Y or B&C. Antler restrictions at their best, designed so I can litter my wall with huge bucks. To hell with ya'll who want to shoot meat for the table, to hell with ya'll who think shooting any buck or small 130"-150" dinks is a challenge. Step into my world, the World of Datamax, where AR's RULE and anyone caught breaking them is shipped out of state and forced to hunt with a Crossbow

Next year, after the new AR's are passed, we're also implementing a mandatory steroid injection program and gene enhancement study - we project that in 12-14 years Arkansas will be producing between 12,000 and 15,000 genetically enhanced, antler restriction protected, main frame 10 point Boone and Crocket bucks per calender hunting month

Hunting is great, isn't it ?

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HMMMM.....Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?? LMRBO

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You'll be shooting a whole lotta does then. Thats great!! It's good to see someone doing their part for the health of the herd!