bigcountry

Man, I have heard it all. Your comparing John Browning to these nitwits? John Browning had more than 100 patents to his credit. He didn't make "educational" and entertainment videos to gather in money. Give me a break. Go play with your 60degree two bolt lug howa. That should say it all.

driftrider

Many of those you listed were either gunsmiths, or had gunsmiths and engineers on their staff. Toby Bridges is nothing more than a gun writer. He lacks the credentials to evaluate the design and metallurgy of a rifle at the level he does. If he'd have said that he thinks that there is a design flaw with the 10ML-II in the barrel and breachplug based upon multiple observations, then he'd not be totally out of his league. But he goes so far as to break it down to specifics he's not qualified to talk about with any authority, which makes him all the less believable.

Oh, and John Browning forgot more about guns and gun design that Toby Bridges could hope to know in his pitiful lifetime. Some people truly have a gift for certain things, Browning's was gun design and invention, Bridges gift is bumbling subterfuge, half-witted extortion and auto-professional grave digging.

Mike

RandyWakeman

That happens to be where you are at.

Whatever fascination one might have with 'qualifications' of Internet posters, it is the qualifications of Henry Ball, Bill Ball, Savage Arms inclusive of Ron Coburn, Carl Hildebrandt, Charles Hodgdon and Team Savage that speak loudly and clearly of a gun that is overbuilt, tested like no other muzzleloader, and errs on the side of caution and safety.

Their combined credentials are above dispute-- and, it is their product that has set the pace here. It is a superb one.

Perhaps you will find Henry Ball's qualifications acceptable:

Henry Ball Interview

RedAllison

Its VERY easy to see that many here aren't engineers. In fact I would say some of you had a fits just getting a public education!

As for comparing Toby, Randy or ANYONE else on this board too the gun writing and building greats, you COMPLETELY missed the point of my post (see my opening statement above!). The point I was making was that a person does NOT have to have a legally documented formal education about a particular subject to know whereof they speak. If that were the case then by such ludicrous idealogy a person could graduate with a theoretical "degree in hunting" that would place them above the knowledge and abilities of those of us with decades of actual, in the field experiences.

Be careful of putting reliance solely upon pieces of paper hanging on the wall behind a mans desk. MANY a layman has gone on too great and wonderous things without such formal training. By doing such "quantitative dismissal" you are only hurting yourself and possibly missing valuable information from some very naturally intelligent people. Alot of what has been learned over the years came from trial and error that was intially dismissed by the "slide rule theorists" and their counterparts behind ivy covered walls.

And btw, some of you guys need an ego check in the WORST way!
RA

skeeter 7MM

My feelings exactly! While a person should read others thesis or experiences it should be eval. based to formulate your own opinion/stance personally...that is an educated position. Not agreeing with everything printed but none the less consider/analysis/pick points/pros/cons/reasoning/objective/MOTIVE/ETC is also educated. I am blue collar/redneck fella at heart who happens to be a white collar worker, my piece a paper says this but means really squat it is the proof in the puddin 'that keeps my bills paid. Long short experience is worth as much as formal training in many aspects, so why question those who may not have intials behind their name but years of fields experience under their belt.

For the record I don't side with either of the individuals persay that many have asked for whats your background in this post and have no real vested interest either. I simply don't agree it can all fall on doctorines or published work to be worth consideration!

As to the ML10II, I can't say I see a reason to be concerned with it in terms of safety aspects to much suggests otherwise and it appears a lot of mud is being slung for various reasons. However since I am no engineer, gunsmith nor rocket scientist it is only my observation/opinion. Some may consider it an uneducated one, but I tend not to agree[8D].

bigcountry

Absolutely. His was never in question.

bigcountry

You got that right. One of our best engineers doesn't have a college education. But he is one in 1000. But he had to take the high road. And prove himself, and he did in spades, I am still waiting for these two jokers to prove themselves other than silly webpages. Give us some solid numbers to chew on. Percentage rates of failures for CVA rifles If you don't have that formal education, then you got to put up or shut up.

Omega50 cal

I just found this site but I see the controversy has been here a while. I read through it all to see if there was anything I missed elsewhere and it seems not - other than one fact does jump out at me. Why hasn't Savage and Mr Ball sued Toby? I thought that was in the works a long time ago but now if I read this right they haven't. That does seem strange.

1SHOT_1KILL

Omerga 50 cal,
First of all, lawsuites already in process and have been for some time. Secondly, I can not and would not divulge the details of such, to you or anyone else at this time, until they are concluded. Thirdly, it's plainly none of your business as too the status of letigation between ourselves and Mr. Bridges. As for Savage, I can not and will speak for them.

sabotloader

1SHOT_1KILL ,

Enlighten me, in your recent post you have written Who are you? I have seen your posts before but just assumed you were one of us normal mortals. By the sound of this post you have a lot more invested in the project than just an observer. I have read the posts here but it is a non-issue for me I am not a Savage user... but often it would help if the stature of the poster was know. Randy is well know and his decision can be influenced by more than personal experiance for most of the rest of us it is personal experiance from years or months of shooting. We didn't design it or build it.

Probably none of this makes any sense, but credibility does have it's value..