RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Lemmings haha!! :D:D:D

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Hello Tony,

CVA was sued out of business not all that long ago, due to the introduction of their "Apollo" model. There were so many personal injury suits appertaining to this model that they were forced into insolvency; that is a matter of the public record.

BPI (CVA / Winchester Muzzleloading / Beartooth) guns are not made in the "same" plant as Austin & Halleck barrels at all. So says CVA, so says Austin & Halleck. Who do you really think "BPI" is, anyway?

A proofing mark alone does not mean a gun is unsafe. All a proof mark means is that the barrel is certified to withstand the CIP stamping, in this case 10,000 PSI. It does mean that the House of Eibar states the barrel has been proofed to 10,000, and just like in any firearm proof loads should never be approached, much less exceeded.

Guns are not "assumed" safe prior to being sold, they must be proven safe. That is what "PROOF" is all about.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm

Austin & Halleck has updated their proofs to fully twice that of Traditions and CVA (BPI) product. Further, Austin & Halleck does stateside testing in Provo, Utah, and nearby Browning Arms to augment the updated proofs.

As a machinist, you should be familiar with Lame's equation to determine tube thickness. There are only two primary values in gun barrel steel strength, yield and tensile. Dynamic yield is determined by adding the minimum yield and tensile values together, then dividing by two. Then, a 100% safety factor is added on top of the minimum wall thickness to determine minimum design wall.

The Austin & Halleck barrels have a ONE INCH octagonal section that runs half the length of the entire barrel. It is due to the tremendously thick wall that their guns can contain, and have been demonstrated to contain, pressures exceeding 29,000 PSI service loads.

The number of personal injury cases appertaining to CVA and Traditions guns is amazing, if not downright alarming. Of that, I am acutely aware.

Now, if Traditions or BPI / CVA can demonstrate to you or to any consumer that their guns have been tested and proven safe at the 25,000 PSI loads their manuals recommend, they would be saving an awful lot of court time. To date, they have not been able to show that they test beyond the proof level at all.

Thompson, Knight, Savage, Austin & Halleck all have clinical data to show that their guns are supremely safe at 20,000, 25,000, 30,000 PSI peak pressures-- and they have done so.

The multiple cases involving horrific injuries and loss of body parts that I am aware of right now are all CVA and Traditions branded product. Perhaps you think it coincidence?:eek:

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Ok, so whats the statistics? .01%, .05%??

I shoot with dozens and dozens of ML shooters. I have yet for them to say they have witnessed a ML explosion.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I think the real problem here is people taking low-end guns, that are just that, and trying to make them shoot like more expensive guns. Everyone wants a little more "performance" out of their guns and at some point they create a pipebomb. I'm not saying that there can't be some design flaws out there. Take a look at the auto industry. I'm just saying common sense is the best advice. READ the owners manual and DON'T exceed ANY load in it. If you want a 200 yd. black powder gun, then buy one. But don't try to make that 100 yd. gun extend it's range. I believe that this is what is really happening to those guns that "blow up".

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I forgot about the apollo model, well certainly a company like BPI wouldnt want to have another problem like that..... I'd imagine I mean its only common sense to correct the problem.

I dont know if you heard about but sako's light weight rifles had a few instances of their barrels failing, does that mean all of sakos rifles are unsafe?? I think not. The point im making every so often a company puts out a bad product but they fix the problem. Ok so CVA had issues with the Apollo does that mean all their rifles will have the same problems??

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Hay Moderator chase this guy.
Randy W. please cease to attack people on this board. The BP board which I very much enjoy has always been totally non confrontational. All her have been the extremely friendly with all members helping each other. Other boards and some topic areas are a bit more dicey so please go there to beat your drum on BPI. Everyone has heard your sermon and it seems most are sick of it. Please go away.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I disagree, if anything at all others have been confrontational towards Wakeman. I've been shooting muzzleloaders for about fifteen years. I have only been computer oriented for about 18 months. Up until about a month ago I had no idea about issues with some guns and some gun companies. There are new people joining the board everyday so prudence dictates this information be available to them too. It's one of the nice things about the internet.
People must be interested in hearing about unsafe practices and products to generate 9 pages of comments/discussion. If you're not interested nobody is forcing you to click the mouse.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

And now thanks to the internet, you are worried/concerned about something you never had a reason to be concerned about.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Well stated and I agree. Also Randy has not been the problem here but actually has taken the brunt of flack handed out. Some of Randy's reviews were first mentioned on this thread by members here and it was great that he came in here and posted himself to voice his opinion and share his experience and knowledge on the topic. I am almost your opposite. I been using computers over 20 yrs and muzzleloaders for only 2 but it is amazing what you can learn by researching a topic on the internet. I never new of the problems the CVA Appollo had until I started researching the topic of buying a new gun last year before that I had been shooting a friends black powder gun. Knowledge is power and the internet is a great way we can share information and experiences.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Hey bud listen up, you don't know me. So don't formulate opinions about what I am and what I'm not. I now know, thanks to the internet, that there are potential safety issues with certain products available to the public. I am AWARE... Which, I think, is the purpose of a message board. To educate, to understand, and to question aspects of this sport/hobby that we are all passionate about. I could give a rats ass about what information you consider pertinent to your safety and well being, but I don't think any body has the right to belittle or attempt to stifle someone who is making the information available to others so they can form their own opinions.
I look forward to your response....

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I for one am not worried about it but its nice to be informed. I would of hated to of gone to some estate sale or gun show and picked up a CVA Apollo not knowing that it is a potential time bomb. Information is what you make of it. As I am sure you already know you have to make up your own mind on what is important and valid here. I personally think any issue regarding the safety of a product, especially when dealing with guns is worth at least taking the time to explore the issue. No one here is forcing anyone to not to buy a BPI product or telling you that your going to blow one up if you own one. What is being stated is information that shows the importance of using good judgement when using a gun and the experience other have had with black powder muzzleloaders..

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Hey hoss, I got all the right in the world to put my opinion out there. And nobody is going to stop me.

I throw out things for people to think about also like Randy, but I don't try to get paid for it. Just a hobbyist like the rest on this board. Things to chew on. If you feel belittled, its really your issue. I sure wasn't aiming to hurt your feelings but for an example of the rest of the forum about the effects of his fear mongering. Still waiting on the official stastics. I feel the US has went thru this safety era, which is driving me nuts. Media pumping people full of fear. You won't believe this, but I think some states, not sure which, require you to take a class to shoot a ML. Does anyone on this forum believe a ML class is required before you buy any ML?

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Hey folks,

This thread really is going Type "A". Perhaps this one has run it's course.

It would be more beneficial for everyone that posts of this nature to include details surrounding the incident. Results of an official investigation would be helpful or the link to them.
Not just "MFG A" guns are blowing up!, Run for your lives and don't buy their products".

Posting in this manner really does appear "activist" in nature. If there is an issue, than I think everyone is interested.

My view is to post without details and the "history" just stir nirvana based on a secular understanding, not that as a general consensus.

I'm not picking on anyone here and no one else should.

My .002 and I'm through with this post.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

This is what started this thread.

Notice, this person shooting this gun was not at the range working up a load. He wasn't hunting. He most likely was shooting a gun that hadn't been cleaned since the previous New Year, and was probably too drunk to bother getting a powder measure. If he indeed was drunk, and if the gun was one year full of rust, how far do you think he got the projectile down the barrel?

That is what I think "causes this to happen."

I think it is a healthy thing to enter into shooting muzzleloaders with a level head, and respect for all the elements of this sport.

I think the moral of this thread should have been;
Be conscerned with the guy on the front porch with a Muzzleloader at midnight. Don't be leary of the gun.

C. Davis

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

And he was probably holding it at arms length, pointed up, with the breech parallel from his face. Any shrapnel would hit him directly in the head. If he was shooting the gun properly, his face would be behind the breech and would probably have resulted in minor injuries or possibly none at all.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I am new to muzzleloading and also new to this site. I just registered because of some very interesting subject matter that I read. Now I am not to sure if I care to be involved since viewing some of the "cock fights" that are going on here. Hopfully this isn't another one of those 'macho man', 'I'll kick your butt' sites where some have nothing better to do.

Anyway I am very thankful for people like Randy Wakeman, who take considerable time and effort to inform others of what may be good, bad, or so-so. This of course is his opinion, and we all have opinions, but at least its a start in the right direction. When you look at all of the ML manufacturer advertisments, all you see is their their self proclaimation of being '#1 - Worlds Biggest Seller - Most Accurate - etc". I did, and was confused as #@$$. So I went to different retail sellers for information, BASS PRO Cabelas, etc, and got more confused. Then I searched on the internet for anything regarding ML's and discovered Randy Wakeman name scattered everywhere. Read most everything he offered.

MY OPINION is this, without people taking the time to really check things out, how would we know? I sure don't get anything in the mail telling me what ML is good or bad. And to the person complaining about the internet contributing to mass histeria, dude wake up and get a life! Yes there is a lot of BS on the net, but you must have some common sense to be able to sort that out. I am thankful there is so much info on muzzleloading. And yes, some is contradictory but I feel its better to have "too much info than none at all".

Randy Wakeman led me in the right direction on purchasing my first ML. I made the decision on what I was buying but it was his hands-on expierence and reviews that guided that decision and a I am very thankful to him.

I may not agree with all he says but I am darn thankful for him doing the homework so I didn't go out and throw money down the drain on my first ML. :)

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Encore50, first off welcome to the site. It's a wonderful thing to have a plethora of useful information right at your fingertips. The way I use these sites is buffet style, if it is of interest then I indulge, if not, then I leave it alone. I happen to take safety very seriously so I find myself interested in threads that pertain to it. I will say my convictions are strong when it comes to safety and firearms. That is my opinion. I made the mistake of thinking everyone else was like minded. I copy and pasted Randy's essay in the beginning of this thread only to let others read it and make their own conclusions. I had no idea it would generate such a response. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe it isn't. I do know, after reading the entire thread several times, I am more convinced than ever not to buy any muzzleloader that doesn't have a reputable company standing behind their product and I also know that not all people are going to agree on every issue. I enjoy a spirited debate, it's one of the ways I learn things. So from this I learned not only do I have to be extra careful at the range when shooting M/Ler's but I have to be cognizant of what the guy next to me is doing and SHOOTING.