BP guns blowing up?
 

What causes ones gun to explodeor blow up?I heard on the radio the day after New Years someone was carrying on a tradition and firing a blackpowder gun and it exploded and killed him.I was just wandering what causes this to happen.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Could be a number of things. Only seen shotguns blow up in my life. I bet its just plain ole metal fatigue. Being shot, carried, cold, hot. I would say half of the explosions are objects in the end of the barrel. I would hate to know the real number of double charges that have went off. But these are guess's.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

eddie_v21 ,

Unfortnately ML's are blowing up more than they should - all brands of em.... Most often because of operator error - either knowingly or unknowingly... To many people that have never used ML's before are picking them up and begining to shoot with out any kind of education or training in the correct operation of the gun.

To many centerfire people are buying inlines and trying to get them operate like a centerfire - creating magnum loads shooting magnum bullets... I think shooting a ML is an art, one that you need to perfect, and one that you need to be able to read the clues as you shoot and learn... Instead of shooting full loads right off the bat, work your way up, learn how your gun performs and stay within the capabilities of your gun.

It really does not take much to cross the line between safe operation and unsafe operation of a muzzleloader... While the business end of the ML is often pointed down range - what may be the most dangerous part of the ML is most often next to your face when you pull the trigger.

Practice safe muzzleloading - all the time...

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I think sabotloader has hit on a real good point. Many people getting into the black powder sport have no idea of what they are doing. When I first started shooting black powder rifles, we used to think 90 grains of powder was a really hot load. We shot roundball for the most part and what ever we hunted we still mananged to take down.

I remember the first add in a hunting magazine when I saw the rifle able to shoot 150 grains of powder. A friend and I talked about that for some time. We could not dream of a .50 caliber rifle able to shoot 150 grains of powder.

There are now a lot of people with rifles that have pushed these rifles to the limit, by people that do not know they are even doing it. My first inline.. a CVA Staghorn Magnum. Read the instructions and it is only magnum with 3 - 50 grain pyrodex RS pellets. If one were to load 3 Triple Se7en pellets or heaven forbid 150 grains of loose Triple Se7en or Pyrodex RS, you have just entered a danger zone with that rifle. Now put a big heavy conical on top of that load and you have increased the barrel pressures to possible unsafe limits.

It is shocking how many people who get muzzleloaders do not read the manual that comes with the rifle. How often have you seen posts of people with a new rifle asking for advise on how to operate the rifle.

There is also the issue of improperly tested barrels. I say improper because I am not saying they are unsafe. They are tested, just not to the same limits that other gun makers test theirs. If you load them in a responsible manner they are fine, in my opinion. Yet we read of people people blowing CVA's, Winchester and now you talk about a Traditions rifle. The Savage rifle incident I have not formed an opinion on the cause but one did blow up. I will leave that as it stands...

I can not stress enough. Read your owners manual. Learn all the things about muzzleloaders you can. And do not push these rifles more then what the manufacture says to.

Like sabotloader pointed out, the most dangerous part is right next to your face. Lets face it people... load that thing wrong and you have just made a pipe bomb. Take care and be safe out there.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I agree. and dont skip over the parts you think you already know,READ IT ALL!!!

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I agree I am new to M/L. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on. I shot my Knight Wolverine with 100 grains of Pyrodex, and although the manufacturer says it can shoot 150. I ain't trying it, I can't even imagine what you would shoot using that much powder. 100 grains seemed like a pretty hot load to me, and I am sure I could take any deer, or elk with 100 grains or less.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Are you telling me that every time I shoot my Traditions PA Pellet flintlock loaded with 75 gr of 777 and a 295 gr Powerbelt I am taking my life in my hands? ....Just wondering..... By the way, I have NO desire to load 150 grains of anything in this gun, before or after hearing about these events. I am sure there are some who would try it though.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

As long as you have people who think that they can take up muzzleloading for the extended hunting season and expect that they can get their ML to shoot like their .270 with minimum effort and minimum knowledge of what they are doing, MLs will continue to go Kaboom.

I know people like this. They buy a muzzleloader, look at the loading chart. and proceed to start with 150 gr of pyrodex with a heavy slug right off the bat. They shoot 3 or 4 shots to sight in and are ready to hunt. Darwin would be proud.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

With 75 grains you shouldn't have a problem. This is the website that article came from and it is just one of the reasons I would buy a product manufactured from BPI.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm

BPI is the company that manufactures CVA, Traditions, New Frontier and Winchester Black power guns. I also don't like there trigger pulls but thats another issue. BPI use an extruded process to form there barrells where as pretty much every other manufacturer uses a milled process.


Directly from the CVA website FAQ

Where and how are CVA barrels manufactured?

Answer: All CVA rifle, shotgun, and pistol barrels are manufactured in Spain. They are made using a cold-draw process that creates rifling, finished bore diameter, and outside dimensions in a single operation. Following the cold-draw process, the barrels are stress relieved. This process provides a smooth, concentric, accurate barrel that is free of inherent defects found in barrels made using a multi-operation process.


Here is a quote directly from Knight's web site on there barrels

Knight Rifles offers Green Mountain Rifle Barrels
- Green Mountain represents the gold standard in rifle barrel manufacturing, which is why we feature them on every Knight rifle we produce. The competition simply can't match the precise tolerances and specifications (within one ten-thousandth of an inch) assured by the Green Mountain milling process.

NEF and Thompsons also use a milled process using rifled steel. BPI is only manufacture I know using a extruded cold steel drawing process.

I hope this explains the differences in the barrels and some peoples concerns.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I have been shooting 150 grains of pyrodex pellets with 245 grain powerbelt aerotips through my TC Omega and haven't had any problems.I read the owners manual and feel it is a safe load.The reason that I shoot this heavier load is that I hunt the edge of an open field and want to have enough killing power if I take a 200 yard shot.I don't feel confident that 100 grains of pyrodex is enough.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I had a CVA once but I would never use 150 grains of anything in it. But I also had prior ML experience with a flintlock and knew that high a powder charge isn't warranted. I agree that a lot of people are new to the sport and don't know what they are doing.

Alcohol maybe?

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

livbucks, no your not taking your lives in your own hands as much as some think, I believe. I just think there's alot of people that has taken safety too far in life. Same people that child proof thier house rounding off all sharp corners and putting GFI's in every socket with covers. Randy is one of them.

I am not a huge randy wakman fan, as I have read his stuff on several pages. I believe he has a niche and is playing it as far as it will go. I don't believe, that the ML are blowing up cause of magnum loads. A ML is a special thing that you can place in the category with reloading. You do it enough you are going to make a mistake. Bottom line.

The internet is a horrible thing sometimes. It puts people in a panic, and really takes away thier balls IMO.

Since the internet took off in 1994, and people got together discussing things, it has been crazy. I got a friend in customer service at Harley Davidson. In the 80's and early 90's, HD had some serious issues with the evo's bearings. Not too many made peeps about it. Since the internet took, off, it exploded. Customer service could not keep up with the calls, people saying, "I heard on the internet", then followed by, "I know 10 people with the same problem" just to throw in some credibility of the call. Now, I know people with the 99-2000 bearing issue, that won't take long trips cause they heard on the internet a problem. Holy cow, where are people's guts. I still ride my 99 Roadking with 35K miles. Long trips, short trips. Life is too short to be in fear constantly worrying about things that never happened.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I've asked this before here and other forums - I'll try again. What are the signs in a ML rifle that pressure is getting too high? They're pretty well known when using centerfire cartridges - but I've seen nothing that explains what to look for in a ML with respect to high pressure (other than accuracy declining).

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Buy a transducer and take pressure measurments.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Rwalter63 ,

You are correct CVA uses the cold drawn process as does Traditions and Austin & Halleck...

The article in your reference and the article that was quoted in this string, written by Randy Wakeman, are Randy's attempt to create a problem. Randy has an agenda, Traditions, BPI/CVA/Winchester, have never replied to his liking when asked a direct question, and when they did he didn't like their explanation. Since then he has been on a one man campaign to rid us of these two companies. Another factor, he is a huge "buy" American fan which I agree with when possible.

Randy basis his campaign on the "Proof Stamp" on the barrel - He interprets this stamp to indicate the maximum pressure the barrel can successfuly stand over a large number of discharges... Traditions - CVA both maintain the stamp is not a pressure test and using a quote from Ray Crow Austin & Halleck. "and he is speaking for Austin & Halleck only"

I have a huge amount of resect for Ray and what he does so I really lean to following his words.

If in doubt always refer to your manual and if necessary follow up with a conversation with the manufacture - they really do want you to be safe...

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

rick_reno ,

Write Cayugad a PM (personal Message) and ask him about pressure signs, there are some and I can not think of anyone that will give you straighter answers than him.... He has been in this game a long time

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

So what you're saying is.... if you reload and shoot muzzleloaders on a fairly regular basis you are going to sustain a severe injury that could potentially cost you your life or at the very least severe pain and suffering.
I for one have people counting on me to make it to work on Monday morning...(part of the commitment I took when I said "I do"). Sure I have insurance in case I don't, but I owe it to them to make every effort that I do.
And generally speaking when I have powder igniting and pressures building inches from my face I want to know that the components containing them are capable of doing so even if I do make a mistake.
I work in an industry that is considered to be in the top five of dangerous jobs and safety is priority one.
I buy the best equipment I can, in all my endeavors, because someday my life could depend on it. If there are safety issues involved with a particular brand or type of firearm I want to know about it. Normally, when I get a safety recall on the vehicle my family is riding in, I at the very least read it....
Jim B.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

i am shooting a wolverine with the musket cap.i am using 2-50 grain pyro pellets and shooting 295 gr. powerbelt.is this a safe load?

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

eddie_v21 ,

If the gun is good shape - it is my opinion that you are well with in the safe boundaries... but even that is no guarantee...

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Many of the ruptures are avoidable. The 777 crud ring has caused alot of problems with short projectile seating. Pellets have caused problems after repeated breakage while loading. When breaking pellets repeatedly, they SLOWLY decrease bore wall strength where the powder sits. Swab often using 777... don't take chances... make sure the bullet is against the powder. When using pellets, it's SAFER not to use a grunting, tight-fitting bullet in combination with pellets.

If your sidelock suddenly starts pulling the hammer back to 1/2 cock.. somethings wrong that's creating back-pressure. If it gives you a burning spot on your hand, arm or face after firing, somethings wrong in the nipple thread area.

If the barrel becomes difficult to load (or) becomes too easy to load, there's a problem with it's iron/steel integrity. If blowback around the breechplug/209 primer area increases or the primer becomes distorted, frayed or mangled-looking, change that breechplug immediately. Also check the bottom holes in your nipples & breechplug for size variations & check the permanent seal & tightness on sidelock breechplugs.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

No bud, are you sure your not a women. You seem to hear what you want to hear. My exact words are sooner or later your going to make a mistake. I was assuming the crowd was smart enough to understand that in rare cases there are injury and most of the time you get out it smarter and better. Anyone that reloads enough has a case lock up in the chamber. It do not mean the gun is going to blow every time, or even 1% of the time. If your going to drive a car, sooner or later you are going to make a mistake. Doesn't mean you are going to be in traction, just means you might have a fender bender, you might end up dead. Dad gone man, I considered that an easy one. It sounds to me that shooting period is a little dangerous for a guy like you with so much to risk. Maybe you can take up nintendo or whatever they do. But then again the EMI exposure could cause you brain cancer.

Lots of people do dangerous work on here Jsmes, so don't feel pregnant. Even I an engineer now, used to work in the coal mines. No big deal. Life is full of chances. Your never safe. Anything can happen at any time. The more people try to control these, the more out of control it becomes.

I just want to know where men's guts are these days. As I say I think Randy's crap is something he has been pushing and seeing it if its there or not. If someone investigated every blew up pistol/rifle/shotgun and sit here and put a story on every one, you would think there was serious danger in something you thought was safe. I have yet to see a modern ML explode but seen shotguns and doublebarrels. I still shoot. Well see where life/chance will take me.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

And read, understand and follow the instructions for your specific rifle.

If you are buying a used rifle, obtian the operation & loading instructions for that model. Also a great idea to have used rifle inspected by a gunsmith or the factory if you are not sure on the condition. There still is nothing for sure.

Many of the rifles being produced TODAY & recently are rated for higher charge usage up to 150gr loose BP. One thing for sure is a fair amount of the older rifles were not rated for 150gr powder.

Unfortunately, with more and more folks shooting ML's every year there will be boneheads that either cannot or will not read or ignor what they have read which will result with more accidents.

With BPI/CVA & Winchester, they did have a run of rifles that were recalled under a "Do not attempt to fire" warning.

Also the lack of cleaning and maintenance can cause dangerous situations.
Residue left down the bore can cause a rise in pressure because the bore becomes smaller as it cakes up. Rough spots (pitting) are created that affect accuracy. Loading becomes difficult forcing you to exert more pressure on the loading rod and increases the possibility of the projectile not seating all the way down. If you are not seating the projectile on the powder and leaving a space, you are creating your own pipe bomb.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Triple777, I thought short seating does not cause a problem with ML. I thought blackpowder would build less peak pressure with a short seated projectile than a tight one. But as smokeless, the tighter the prectile the more pressure and faster burning it is.

Reason I say that, I had a hard time switching to sabots from my sidelock years ago. I insisted on using maxiballs in my inline. I kept having issues with the maxi falling off the load. Once while getting out to the stand lowering my gun barrel down, a maxi went all the way to the bore. Well anyway, it was fired before with a short seated load. But "experts" in the ML industry told me peak pressure would be less in that situation. I may be wrong.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

More than likely coal dust has affected and clouded your judgement, maybe a lack of oxygen to the brain, so I will try and keep this short and to the point. If you would like to come on up here and check out my manhood I coordially invite you. It seems you are an authority on things like that.
My point is and always has been, if there are substandard products out there people should know about it. To tell someone if they shoot muzzleloaders and reload enough they are going to make a mistake, makes me wonder if you should be allowed to even own firearms. If your knuckles don't drag on the ground and you stick to tried and true safety practices there shouldn't be any mistakes. You on the other hand. " probably will sooner or later make a mistake".

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

FYI
WARNING:

DO NOT USE CVA IN- LINE RIFLES WITH
95 OR 96 SERIAL NUMBERS
SERIOUS INJURY MAY RESULT
RECALL REMINDER

In 1997, Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc., voluntarily implemented a recall of in-line muzzleloading rifles manufactured in 1995 and 1996. If you currently own or possess a CVA in-line rifle with a 95 or 96 serial number, or you purchased one or gave it or sold it to another person, and the barrel has not been replaced, you should contact a Company Representative immediately by calling the customer service number below:

1-770-449-4687(8:30 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. EST)

To identify the rifle, read the serial number on the barrel opposite the firing bolt. The only CVA rifles subject to the voluntary recall are in-line models with serial numbers ending with the last two digits of 95 or 96. No other firearm models within the CVA product line are affected by the voluntary recall.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blackpowder Products, Inc. purchased the assets of Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc. in May, 1999. Blackpowder Products, Inc. assumed no liability for any product manufactured or sold prior to January 1, 1998. Blackpowder Products, Inc. is continuing the Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc. recall, and will cover all related shipping and repair charges. Please do not return your in-line rifle before contacting a Company Representative at the above customer service number.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I may be wrong but I think this is a different issue than this thread was talking about.

These were known defects. I got a ad showing recal of remington rifles over safety. It was known, it was delt with.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: bigcountry

I don't know if I agree that you WILL sustain a severe injury, but I will say that there is always a chance to make a mistake. Case in point:

I had just finished dropping two 50-grain Pyrodex pellets down the barrel when my friend called me over to check something out on his Encore. After a minute or so, I came back to my rifle, and while we continued to talk, I absent-mindedly dropped an additional two pellets down the bore, then seated a 295-grain Powerbelt Aerotip on top of the charge. I capped the nipple, aimed and fired. When I picked my dumb arse off the ground (as the recoil blew me off the seat of the bench), I was in a semi-state of shock. It took a while to figure out that I had actually shot a 200-grain charge. Thankfully I suffered no injury, and upon a phone call to Remington, I found out that a one-time overload like this one should not have caused any harm to the rifle, as the barrel and receiver have been tested at higher than specified loads, just-in-case an idiot like me did what I did.

However, it does go to show that, with one minor lapse in critical thinking, disaster can be right around the corner.

That is why I always handload for centerfires away from wives, kids, TV, radio and any other distraction. I never want to make an error with smokeless!

Brian

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Thank God the gun you were shooting was manufactured to handle such an oversight. Not all of them out there are made that way and people should know about it. When it comes to firearms there is no such thing as an over abundance of safety. Awareness is the key, so if people like Randy Wakeman are beating a drum for too long, I applaud them!!
Jim B.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Again, I think most posters on here will see what I actually wrote. You assume things like my exwife, so I was wondering if you are a women and hear what you want to hear. I could care less about your manhood and I make it a point never to go to NJ. Anyplace with jughandle turns, I got to wonder why hasn't people taken up arms and marched to the state capital and demanded some intelligence. So I guess your out of luck.

Can anyone else that reloads quite a bit, like briman, or somebody with some experience verify, that yes, mistakes happen. I don't like them. Nobody does. Are you saying you have never made a reloading or shooting mistake?

BD hunter has admitted to something that is quite common in ML. I mean one day your having an off day.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

But don't you think we as americans have taken safety way too far? Made people scared to leave thier houses. I guess what i am saying is, there's such a thing as putting too much fear in people.

For example when I was working on roofs, for a while, I used every safety gear known. Several people warned me that, there was too much of a good thing, and if I kept up worrying about falling, it would probably happen. There is a nice balance that needs to be met.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Mistakes can certainly be made by everyone.

I think that continued re-inforcement regarding safe practices and procedures is essential.

Also, if you become aware that someone is doing something with an ML that is not safe, I feel obligated to inform them as such.

Thats one of the great things about this and other forums.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

When I took my hunters safety course (almost three decades ago) The instructors brought out and paraded around for us kids, some fine examples of blown up rifles. Quite a few where the classic split and curl variety that cartoons like to copy. Some were shrapnel bombs with large chunks missing. My point is that still to this day I have that vision in my head every time I go to the range. I'm not sure if needed that level of paranoia resting on me, but it sure has made me a careful shooter.

My pops used to reload .357 magnum cartridges at the dinner table when I was a kid. He was always careful in whatever he did. One time he blew a primer while ramming a case. We all about $h!7 when that thing went off. He sat there for a minute before looking at his hands. Nothing bad came of it though. Mistakes happen, but you gotta live before you die right? I figure if I buy the farm at the range on Sunday, I get the day off for sure on Monday!:D

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I myself, saw the danger when I was like 7 with a 410 shotgun I was using as a walking stick barrel down in mud. Nobody got hurt, but I learned real quick what can happen and ruined my first gun.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I accidentally fed a slug into a full choke shotgun and blew the barrel apart.

That was at age 12.

No physical injury, but my father was sure pissed off after he got past the "Ok, the boy is not hurt" part.
He was more upset and pissed because I did not follow the basic rules. "Always ensure that the ammunition is fresh and correct for your weapon".

Then I spent what seemed like forever working and saving to pay him back for the replacement Auto-5 Barrel.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Seems to me most of the fuss is over the "gee, I just bought a muzzleloader at Bass Pro Shop for $69.00, is it a good gun?" type. You get what you pay for. I've hunted with and shot with flint and percussion tradtional muzzleloaders for over thirty years without any issues. Made some minor mistakes over the years, but never any safety proiblems. You CAN blow a traditional muzzleloader with BP, but it takes a lot of work. To do it, you would either have to be the must unlucky person in the world, or the stupidest.

I don't shoot inlines, not because of safety issues, they just are not my area of interest. If you DO shoot inlines, instead of asking Joe Anyone on the 'net, they hide information about your rifle in a thing called "Instructions", or "Instruction Book". If you don't do your homework, and don't do your research, well, stuff happens.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

they should be fine unless you overload them or have an old gun

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I think Charlie about summed it all up.Me I like my $69. BP rifle.I did'nt just read I studied.Also I found out real quick that the MAX load kicks like hell and wasn't even needed.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

sabotloader

I believe if you check the record Randy's actually defends Austin & Hallecks barrels since they have a test center and actually test the barrells at very high pressures.

Here is a qoute from one of Randy's articles




Now I am not trying to defend Randy and I agree he pushing hard to get answers from BPI, but I think its up to BPI to answer his question. I believe you can never have enough information when trying to make a decision on purchasing something that has the potential to injure you or some one you love. I appluad Randy for his writings, but I believe it is up to everyone of us to look at all the facts and make your own mind on the issue. Its up to you the gun owner to do your home work and research your purchase and study the proper way to use and handle that purchase so you can feel safe using it and have peace of mind. I personally won't buy a BPI product but not just because of the barrel issue, although it does weigh in as a factor. As I said in my earlier posts I do not like the trigger pulls on their guns, and from what I have read a lot off other people don't like that aspect as well.

I hope to pass on my firearms to my sons when they are old enough and I can teach them the proper way to load and handle them. I don't want to ever have safety be an issue even if there is only a slight chance of failure. Sure every muzzleloader out there has a remote chance of malfunctioning but why risk it on manufacturer who refuses to answer questions, and has a gone bankrupt over past defects. Just my opinion though, as I said ealier your free to make up your own mind on this issue.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I don't believe in fluted barrels for blackpowder.Part of the reason I bought my blackpowder Omega was the more accurate heavy barrel.Why would anyone want to take some of the steel off the barrel just to make it a couple ounces lighter?It seems to me that most of the muzzleloaders talked about exploding are the cheaper CVA ones that have their barrels made in Spain.I watched a video at an outdoor show on how they are made.Afterwards I was talking to the man who ran the program and explained to him that the CVA rifles were nice but they weren't made in America.It is like most goods made overseas.They are cheaper in price and I believe in quality too.I don't worry at all when I shoot 150 grains of pyrodex out of my Omega.I did alot of research before I bought my muzzleloader and had heard of the CVA barrel problem.With the internet,I do research on my big purchases and study for months before I do actually buy anything that costs a major amount.Do your homework and make sure you read the owners manual before you do any shooting.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Wow!!! Lots of great stuff here. I do not plan to go over 2/50 777 pellets in my inlines by Traditions. In my Pennsylvania Long Gun I use 70 gr 777. for the Trapper pistol 30 gr 777. I use the 777 for cleanliness. I am working my loads for the inlines to 70 & 80 Pyrodex pellets since I got a bunch cheep.

Main theme is I totally agree that there is way to much Safety crap going around these days. I am not talking about Guns here. I for one am sick and tired of being barraged with warnings that only complete idiots need to be told. Don’t put your hand under the lawn mower when the motor is running. Duh!!! I think a lot of it started when we let the government make seatbelts a law. Not to miss the Drug companies and their constant advertising telling you you are about to die without their drugs. It is real hard to tell the real from the unreal these days and that’s the way they want it because many will ignore all the warnings and their products will sell better. That’s almost like a switch. Oh well the bottom line is Less Laws and fire all attorneys.