RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Right on target man, Thank you. There is a vast difference between being informed about the interests you pursue and over doing safety. The more information and knowledge you have about what you are doing and what you are doing it with, the less likely you are to make a mistake. Every body needs to make their own decisions. I own three muzzleloader: T/C Encore, Knight Original Disc, and a Savage ML-II.
I researched each of them before I purchased them. It's part of the fun of this hobby... reading up on an intended purchase, asking guys who already own one, how they like them, and checking message boards for ideas and inputs. Hopefully somebody read this thread before they purchased a used muzzleloader that MAY have been manufactured substandardly and decided to buy one that, at the very least, has a company that stands behind its product.
Jim B.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Just in case any one wants to communicate directly with Randy he is a frequent follower and poster at the following forum. I know quite a few of the poster here post over there also.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ub...ubbthreads.php

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Here's another one....



http://wolfhound.proboards27.com/index.cgi


Jim B.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I just bought a Traditions Pursuit Pro .50 ca.. I have not shot it yet. Anyone know if there has been any problems reported with this model??

Thanks!! Jim from Jersey

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

JsmesB67 and others,

Randy has been grinding this axe for several years now, basicaly becuase BPI and Traditions did not respond to him in the manner he liked so he has been on crusade every since. Since that time he has been on his crusade... BPI and Traditions and even early Austin Hallecks use Spanish barrels proofed by the house of Eibar. Follow directions be diligent and they work just fine. Do not follow directions make a mistake - you might have a problem.

He revives this every so often just to stir the mud - all ML's, and any gun can be dangerous.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I got this sent to me. 90 gr. of Pyrodex RS and a 300 gr. Sabot did this. The shooter lost part of his hand. If you look you can see the proof mark which gives the proofed pressure of almost 10,000 PSI. The load produced 19,000 PSI. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. People are getting hurt.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Hey woldhound

Do you have any input about the new traditions Pursuit Pro .50 cal that just come out. I just bought one, and after reading from this site, I am wondering if this model is having problems also. Now I know that most of these accidents are user related, but there is also manufacturer defects out there also. Thanks!

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I've heard nothing about the Pursuit. So fall all the blow ups I've heard about are CVA Eclipses, CVA Hunterbolts, Winchester X-150, and now this Traditions Buckhunter Pro. I'm sure there are more where the shooter didn't get hurt and sent the gun back to the company and got a new one. Those you'll seldom hear about.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Wolfhound76, what was the shooting history of that barrel?
In other words, whom owned it, how did they care for it and what was the loading history of the barrel? Was it always properly loaded and cared for since placed into service?

I am in no way trying to suggest that defects or premature failures don't or cannot happen. They do. I'm also not trying to defend any manufacturers. I'm not.

There is another thought here that I have no science answer for but I agree with my own speculation.

If, for some reason loading a projectile is very, very difficult and excessive force is required to load, then the over tight fitting projectile can cause dangerous higher pressures when fired from the barrel. I'm not talking about a tight or stubborn projectile that is correct for the barrel dimensions. I'm talking about more loading force than can be accomplished by hand.

Think about it, I've seen folks take out a mallet, stick, board and literally beat on a ramrod to load. Or, ram into a tree or ground out of frustration.
Every time I have always interrupted them and told them that if you have to force load, then something is either not right with the round, your barrel needs to be cleaned or both.

I have always cleaned in-between shots when shooting sabots and every few shots when shooting PRB or conical.

For the folks that have purchased the Traditions Pursuit and other new rifles, I would not panic over this issue. Follow your manuals and properly care for your weapon.

This topic also brings up a very good point about buying used or antique weapons.

Steel and metal does fatigue over time and usage with heat, pressures and corrosive primers and propellants. This is a fact. Frequency of use and maintenance quality can accelerate or prolong wear.

1) If it's used and looks neglected = Pass on it, wall hanger only, or if unsure, have it inspected by the factory or a competent gunsmith prior. I purchase used weapons all the time. But not ones that have the signs of neglect or are simple very worn. Still there is no guarantee with a used weapon. After all, do you want to place your safety with someone else's neglect?
This is not to say that there is anything wrong with investing in a well cared for used weapon. Use common sense and if unsure than have it inspected for a ruling on it's firing condition.

2) Antiques or very old/worn or neglected weapons should never be fired in my view. Unless you are going to re-barrel/build the weapon to restored service quality.
There is no reliable way to document the service history of the weapon, regardless of it's condition. And, shooting places additional wear and devalues the weapon.

I think that safety can never be stressed enough. Many folks get weapons that have never fired one in their lives and have no one to teach them correct handling, loading and care. I don't mind seeing documentation that re-iterates anything regarding safety.

Granted, much of the safety labeling and literature is a direct result of liability lawsuits and litigations. (I was never told, so therefore the manufacturer is responsible for my unsafe action).

My .002

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I don't know much about this case. It was an ex-marine and he got the rifle from his daughter. Other than the load used that's all I know.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Man, I swear I don't mean any disrespect, but thats just irresponsible for you to even post a picture. You were insinuating that it was cause of bad pressure testing or manufacturing defect. I bet thats how most took it.

This is what I am talking about. Pumping people full of fear.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Which is why I was also wondering what the history of the rifle?
The picture shows a barrel loaded with rust? That indicates poor maintenance to me.

I don't think Wolfhound was trying to post fear.

It is a very disturbing photo.

But the true cause of the incident should accompany such photo's in my view

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I agree that the barrel pictures seem to indicate fairly heavy rust. One land is completely rusted through which indicates the rest of the barrel at that level was likely pitted badly adding to the stress risers at the point of the rust attack. I would not be overly concerned about other spanish rifle barrels if treated correctly and kept within reasonable load levels. I do not load my Traditions Pursuit LT over 100gr. black powder equivalent charges which means with synthetics that generate higher velocity I reduce charges accordingly. You must keep aware of what your selected powder is capable of. I also agree if a bullet seats funny pull the charge and inspect. Forcing the bullet down is a bad thing. Continuous constant pressure is fine but a sharp increase in loading before seating on the bullet is not a good thing which is what I get with the 777 crud ring.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Anyone that would fire a gun in that condition deserves Darwin's wrath. Letting a weapon come to that condition is inexcuseable. Especially since it has a breechplug. Some people scare me. Another case of "What the hell were you thinking?"

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

How many blown muzzleloader pics have you seen? I'd be less inclined to believe the shooter if there were no rust. Pyrodex rusts barrels if left uncleaned. Would you have cleaned the rifle that blew part of your had off?

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I'm wondering about another cause of blackpowder kabooms.

"lets see here, istruction books says right here... it can take 3- 50 gr pyrodex pellets."

"One, Two, hey bubba, can you get me another beer? Yawn! that was sure some party last night wasn't it bubba?"

"Lets see, where was I, Oh yeah, two.. Two, Three. Directions say start bullet and push all the way down, Sherrrrrrr Whissssst. Done!"

Distractions, alcohol, or fatigue are the quickest demise to handloaders or muzzleloaders.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I am far better equipped to address MY motivation and matters of fact. Unless you been directly involved with more innocent people that have been injured using new chain-store cheap charlie muzzleloaders than I am, you might wish to rethink your comments.

Muzzleloading is not a sophisticated sport. Most muzzleloaders shoot no more than 7 times a year. That is shots, not range sessions. There is no governing body in muzzleloaders, there are NO standards. They are no more considered firearms by the ATF than an adult air rifle of BB gun.

Needless injury hurts this sport, and hurts this industry. The pressures created by three pellet loads are not speculative, they are fact-- recorded by Lyman Ballistic laboratories and others. You are looking at a spread in the 25,000 PSI area.

A definitive proof mark ABSOLUTELY mean that is all a barrel is proofed to-- period. That is what proof houses do. There is no such thing as a "minimum proof" or a "maximum proof"-- there is only a number. If a barrel, such as a CVA or Traditions gun says 700 kp/cm2 on it----------- that is all the proof house is attesting to, nothing further. The CIP has no standards for pellets, or for Triple 7 which has nothing to do with black powder.

What you ignorantly refer to as "mud-stirring" in putting a LOT of people in the hospital: that is a matter of fact, not speculation.

There are NO reliable pressure signs in an inline muzzleloading rifle. None-- until a barrel rings, puffs, or shrapnels.

As Chuck Hawks put it-- "I would not buy a Traditions or BPI (CVA, etc. brand) muzzleloader until or unless they are supplied with an ordinance steel barrel proofed to a MAP of at least 35,000 psi. (In other words, for a 25,000 psi [150 grain equivalent maximum powder charge] plus a 40% over pressure safety margin.) Those are the same standards (maximum recommended load plus 40%) I would apply to ANY modern rifle--why should a black powder arm be any different?

The issue is quite real, and growing. Del Ramsey, Doc White, Henry Ball, Ken Oehler, Johan Loubser-- and responsible companies like Hornady, Hodgdon, and Barnes bullets all have grave concerns about this. Can anyone dispute the knowledge and integrity of these men and these companies?

Ray Crow was mentioned, and quite incorrectly. When this issue was brought up, Austin & Halleck immediately sent a team over to their barrel supplier in Spain to get their proofs updated. They are proofed to fully double that of CVA and Traditions product. They are tested past 29,000 PSI in Provo, Utah. They are stronger than the Traditions / CVA garbage-- the basis is quite simple: the massive, generous wall thickness found on Austin & Halleck rifles.

There are two basic values used in determining barrel strength, tensile and yield. CVA and Traditions both have no clue what those values are-- and have NO testing facilities in the USA. They both HAVE FAILED to so much as state, much less prove, that their barrels are tested and proved safe with 25,000 PSI loads. They are clueless. Yet, their owner's manuals tell you to use loads that produce those pressures and more. They know not that they know not.

you think that all the injuries, all the personal injury cases in litigation right now are all user-related, I can state from a point of intimate, independent knowledge that they are NOT.

Darn right CVA and Traditions guns are blowing up with recommended loads-- and 911 is being called all the time. I absolutely find them substandard, deficiently proofed, and insufficiently tested.

So did all the judges that put CVA out of business in the first place. You tell me what has changed since then -- except that loads are getting faster and higher pressure?[:@]

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Randy i have a T/C 45 cal. omega, are they proof tested ?

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

They are far more than proof tested-- T/C has one of the most extensive testing programs in the industry.

You may note that ONLY 100 gr. Triple 7 loose powder is allowed in your Omega. The reason is, Thompson will not allow new propellants until they go through the entire line of combinations-- a very time-consuming process.

There is "testing," and there is testing. Thompson is one of the very best.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Randy,

Well stated and as I stated in my earlier posts I appluad your work and effort at trying to get standards in a industry that should be better regulated from the manufacturers themselves. It would be nice to see the major manufacturers band together and set safety standards for todays inline muzzleloaders. It is unfortunate that most companies today are concerned with only the bottom line and setting standards might add cost to a product. Well here is one consumer that would gladly pay a few extra dollars to know that my gun met some sort of international standard for safety.

Thanks again and keep up the good work. As my father always told me "knowledge is power" and "If something is worth doing its worth doing it right"

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Thanks Randy, I only use 100gr of powder . ? how do they proof test a barrel....

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I just stay away from lower quality guns such as cva ans traditions. I bought an Omega and I have never heard of one of them blowing up. You get what you pay for. When you hear of a ml blowing up it is a cheap gun that someone bought just to save a few bucks. How many of you have ever heard of a TC or Knight blowing up for no reason?????

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Proof testing is done by live fire of an overcharge. It is used primarily as a quality control procedure-- I know of no quality arms maker that expects to lose a barrel during proof.

Design is another matter, quality gun makers use a figure called dynamic yield strength to determine barrel wall thickness, then use a 100% safety factor as a minimum. In other words, that would be the minimum wall thickness times 2.

There are many, many more guns blowing up than most people would imagine. Thankfully, most blown guns do not result in serious injury. The ones in the hands of lawyers have resulted in death, dismemberment, loss of vision, etc. Brutal stuff.

The sad footnote is, no one needs to spend a lot of cash to get a quality muzzleloader. The Knight Wolverine, Thompson Black Diamond, and NEF Sidekick can all be had inside two hundred bucks. The blued Sidekick I've seen for $110 or so, made in Gardner, Mass.

There is no reason for anyone to bet their lives on a putty-barreled frontloader. That arm you may have just saved is better used to hug your wife, girlfriend, your mother, or your kids.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Nope, only yours.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Then how come I bet 95% of all Muzzleloader shooters has never witness'd a blown barrel if its so common. I mean you are out there hunting down people struggling to find a problem. Sure if you look hard enough, your going to find a problem. I bet 95% of ML shooters has witnessed car wrecks. And 50% of those where something associated with the car or maintenace. I bet getting in your car every day is much more dangerous than the fear you sell.

A ML is a special beast that it so easy to over load, double load,etc. I wonder how many people have done this in your studies. I bet alot.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Keep up the good work Randy!!!!

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

It seems that you do.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Never, I only operate within what Knight says I can. And then rarely. Can't say I ever fired a cVA. I have only T/C and Knights.

Don't worry, randy, you'll always be able to sell your fear. Fear is such an infection disease in Amerca these days. Only getting worse. So you will always have a job.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

If i remember correctly CVA states in their owners manual for their quote "magnum" charge 50 cal. rifles. To only use a magnum charge with pyrodex pellets and bullets 300 grains or lighter.

when ever I go to the range I stand behind the line for a few minutes before picking a bench just to see what everyone is doing, I remember last spring I noticed a guy shooting a CVA firebolt he was measuring 150 grain Pyrodex RS then seating 370 grain T/C maxi balls. needless to say I picked a bench all the way on the other end of the firing line.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

The funny thing is I never heard of a CVA or tradtions blowing up either.... I have heard of a austin helleck that blew up and a couple savage's that also blew up. My guess is they were all operator errors.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

HMMMMM!!! sounds kinda funny because I used to shoot rifled slugs through a full choke in my mossberg 500 was my first gun and only gun at the time and that was how i deer hunted for my first 3 seasons before i got a rifle.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Can you specify what milling process they use exactly?? I highly doubt green mountian and T/C are using a new barrel making technique. I guarentee they are using one of the few standards of rifle barrel manufacturing most likely button rifling.

The standards for rifle barrel manufacturing is cut rifling which I guarentee no ML company uses because the process takes about an hour to punch out one barrel.

The next is button rifling which is how more then likely most ML companys make their barrels.

The next is hammer forging which is the way BPI makes there barrels though they dont say it that way, its the standard for europes barrel making process, you call BPI products junk but remington,sako, tikka, H&K,steyr, and sauer all use hammer forged barrels and i'd hardly call any of those rifles junk!!!

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

I have a couple questions where are all these BPI muzzle loaders that are supposedly blowing up all the time and all over the place??? that I have never seen or heard of??? as far as I can tell all your quote facts are merely just speculation, if you can show some good hard solid evidence that BPI muzzle loaders are so horridly dangerous other then just a proofing mark on the barrel then maybe I'll take you seriously.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Are you through talking to yourself?:)

Yes, I'm Randy Wakeman. Who are you?

No, CVA / BPI barrels are not made in the same factory as A & H.

Why would you be aware of any of these cases?

Your assumption that BPI guns are hammer-forged is incorrect.

Your assumption (or guarantee) that no muzzleloading barrels have cut rifling is incorrect.

There is no standard for cut rifling in SAAMI barrels-- see Dan Lilja.

Austin & Halleck does not get their barrels from CVA.

What other misinformation do you have to offer?

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Wait a minute, don't put words down I never used. I never once said they where junk. You just made that up. GO back and reread what I wrote. I said do your homework and make up your own mind. Knowledge is what you use of it. You take the potential pros and cons and you must weigh them in order to what you feel is valid and of importance. Then make up your own mind. Thats all I said. I personally like I said ealier wouldn't buy a BPI product but it is not just because of this one issue. Enough people have complained about the hard trigger pull to more than justify not buying one alone. I've handled a couple of BPI products just to check the triggers and I decided I don't want to play trigger roulette. Gee do I get a good one or don't I. As for BPI according to there web site they are using and cold forging method which yields a barrel with rifling in a single process which means they are using an extrusion technique. They could be extruding the steel at temperatures any where from room temp to a few hundered degrees. The method they use I would guess follow for the process would go something like this where a chemically lubricated bar slug of steel is forced into a closed die under extreme pressure. The unheated metal then flows into the desired barrel shape die. During this process the cylinder is formed and rifling is included in the barrel all in a single step process. Now whether they are using a forward or rear extrusion technique I don't now but I would guess its a forward extrusion technique. Now it certainlly differs from using a button technique where they take a barrel blank slightly smaller than the caliber expected and ram the button down blank. Now with Hammer forging your taking about taking a nearly 2-inch-diameter bar of steel about 12 inches long with a hole through its center, and hammering it until it, elongates it into a tube of the desired length. It usually ends up having a muzzle diameter less than one-third of what it was originally. All three methods then would have to be releived for stress. I would agree with you on one point that being most muzzleloaders probably are not using a cut or "hook" rifling technique since they tend to be time consuming and more expensive. Maybe Randy can tell us what manufactures use what techniques and shed some more light on the subject.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Polychoke, set on full + rifled slug = ruined barrel and choke.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

well ...... the post didnt specify if it was a poly choke, fixed choke or screw in choke. now that being mentioned that it was a poly choke it makes more sense now.

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Randy wakeman,

To introduce myself I am Tony Battista, From my experience of working as a machinist I assumed that BPI uses the hammer forging technique since from the sound of their barrel making technique description, hammer forging sounds the closest to what they were explaining... also I never said A&H get their barrels from CVA................. I simply stated they are made in the same plant that also happens to be contracted by BPI, which I cant say im completely sure about since its just hearsay I heard from a friend who shoots both A&H and CVA's. Hmmm Hearsay which is what your claims are anyway...... One thing I do know for a fact is BPI barrels and A&H barrels have the same proofing mark on them which according to you that proofing mark makes BPI guns unsafe so basically that would make A&H's unsafe too?, according to your theories and speculations. But according to you A&H are perfectly safe and are ok to shoot. All your ideas and speculation about BPI guns is entirely based on the proofing mark which A&H has the same mark, but are OK...... you make no sense.... What is your deal what do you have against BPI guns??? Once again I will ask where are all these BPI guns that blow up all the time???? Also since you are such the expert I would love to know what ML company uses cut rifling?? The reason I know your name is because I’ve read several of your posts in the past. and to tell you who I am I'm the guy who wants solid evidence from you that shows BPI guns are unsafe. I have been shooting CVA and traditions muzzle loaders for nearly 15 years and have never had any such problem you claim that BPI products have or will have because of their proofing mark......

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

eddie_v21
You asked a perfectly legitimate question. I have read every reply so far and if there were any real answers to you question, I must have missed it.

The easiest way to explode a blackpowder rifle is to use Smokeless Powder instead of Blackpowder, or an approved black powder substitute.

Another way to explode a black powder rifle is to not fully seat the projectile on the powder. If that person who exploded his rifle bringing in the New Year hadn't cleaned his rifle since he shot it last new year, his chances of getting his projectile all the way down the barrel were probably slim at best. The more air between the powder and the projectile, the more trouble you will probably be in.

Then, there is the overcharging method of blowing up a black powder rifle. This is where too much powder is poured, and the projectile is actually seated on the charge. This is probably the hardest way to blow up a gun, although I consider it entirely possible.

Add alcohol to the mix, and it will only help insure the integrity of the human gene pull.

I have shot black powder rifles since the early 80's. I consider it a perfectly safe sport that I share with my family. Know the do's and don’ts of your particular rifle, and use your head. You will be fine.

I personally have not heard many occasions.

C. Davis

RE: BP guns blowing up?
 

Advice and opinions should be taken just as such. Nothing anyone says is chisled in stone. I find it hard to believe any company could stay in business for very long if they made such dangerously inferior products. It would be very hard to prove whether a "blown barrel" was caused by inferior steel, manufacturing process, or rifling process. Or whether someone had simply not followed the loading instructions and blew up the gun due to carelessness. If someone wants to come on here and make a name for himself, then so be it. Just don't expect everyone to follow you over the cliff like a bunch of Lemmings.