Guys, thanks for all the help so far.

However after reading around and checking up on things I'm back to money issues.

My low dollar options of the CVA Optima, OP, and Kodiak all scare me a little to much to pluck down cash on. A lot of bad things have been said and I haven't heard one person stand up for the company and say buy an Optima Pro or anything. That leaves me with the NEF Sidekick. Robert, purchased one, recommended one, but then his links turned me away from this rifle. I just dont see why you should have any problems with your rod in the field hunting. Not to mention only coming with a 1 year warranty. At least CVA gives you a lifetime warranty. I would love to get a Disc Elite or a TC Omega but it aint happenin'!

So anyway I decided to check out some of the mid range Knights and TC's. I've heard alot of good things about the Wolverine 209 and it seems like a nice rifle. So I went and checked out a Wolverine and a TC Black Diamond. They both seemed very nice but the shop only had the 22" barrels. Also I was worried since it appeared that the breach is exposed on both of these when ready to fire. Is this a problem? Am I wrong on this? What do you guys think of the Wolverine 209 and the BlackDiamond/ BD XR? Is it important to go with the 26" barrel on these guns and stay away from the 22".

So here I am. ML season starts Saturday. I havent completely ruled out NEF or CVA. However I dont want to spend between $200-300 on a "entry level gun". Even at that money I expect a rifle, that with care, I can pass on to my son. CVA's do not bring up those kind of thoughts after reading around these forums and NEF comes with a 1 year warranty and other issues. I'm basically looking at the Knight Wolverine, T/C BD and BDXR, and possibly a Disc Extreme if on sale. Although I'm hesitant on that as the Elite seems to have been made just address issued with the Extreme. Maybe I'm way off on my assesment of the CVA's.The Kodiak and Optima do seem nice. I really would hate to pass up the closed breach CVA's and pay the same money for the open to the element Knight or TC. If that is even a big issue.

OK, enough rambling. I hate to be an immediate pest on here but the only dealers close are superstores with outrageous prices and less than helpful clerks. If I say what else after Omega or Revolution you could hear a pin drop. Really, they are mostly young, get the most commercialized gun types, or they dont even ML and could care less. So again, thank you very much for your help. It is greatly appreciated and definitely needed.

Dave

I own a Knight Wolverine II which uses the #11 caps and has the 22 inch barrel. I also own a Thompson Center Black Diamond XR. This rifle has the 209 ignition. Both of them are great shooters.

First the issue of the open breech. It really is not all that big of a deal unless you intending on hunting in the shower. I hunted in a snow storm and the rifle still fired fine. Granted, don't dare the breech to get wet, cover it with some handi wrap when your walking and hold your hand over the breech when your sitting. They also sell breech covers which fit over the open breech if it really worrys you that much. Put a finger cot on the end of the barrel and your waterproof.

The idea of the 22" barrel should not bother you. My Black Diamond XR has a 26 inch barrel but it is really not more accurate then the Wolverine. If you were shooting 150+ yards, then the longer barrel might be a plus. If your shooting 100 yards and under, don't let the 22" barrel scare you at all. All the shorter barrel does is limit the amount of powder you can really shoot. Although they are magnum rifles, with a 22" barrel you would not want to shoot more them 120 grain because there would be unburnt powder flying out the barrel. Also most of your accurate loads will come out at about 100 grains of powder... so the shorter barrel is not a problem. Especially if your going to scope the rifle.

My Wolverine II if you load 80 grains of Goex 3f or Triple Se7en and a 240 grain T/C Mag Express XTP the accuracy is excellent. Even harder to believe accuracy when you shoot the expensive 250 grain Barnes Expanders. It also shoots Powerbelts and other projectiles excellent. I put a Bushnell Trophy RED DOT on this rifle and it is an excellent brush rifle. I use it in my tree stands. The wolverine is a great rifle. A real workhorse meat and potatoes rifle. It is also easier to clean then the Black Diamond XR.

The Black Diamond XR is an excellent shooter. It will shoot almost anything you want to shove down it for some reason. I like to shoot 460 grain Conicals out of it. I also have some other pet loads for the rifle. This rifle I have a scope on and use during the modern season. I would not worry about a 150 yard shot if I had a solid rest and the animal was not running. A broadside shot, I would knock that deer down I really believe this.

Both the Knight and T/C have excellent customer service and warranty. If there is a problem they fix it. I have used Thompson Center's customer service and warranty, and there is no questions with them. You have a problem, they have a solution. CVA has a good warrany I was told but never had to use it. I also have a CVA Staghorn and it is a good shooter. But there is that barrel issue out there.

I really would hate to pick one rifle over the other. If I were going to do a lot of walking, I would take the Knight. If I were stand hunting, I would use the Black Diamond. Tonight I took the CVA. Tomorrow night, who knows....

When you shouldered the rifles, which felt better when you pulled it? The Knight or the Thompson center? You might want to consider this when you choose. Recoil is not bad with either rifle....

David,

You made me curious what did I miss. What didn't you like about the Sidekick that made you rule it out. I was not that concerned about the warranty because if I ever do really get into muzzleload hunting to the point I stop using my Remington 870 I would probably spend the money and buy the Encore. That and I don't expect to have a probem with the gun but maybe I am being naive.

Good Luck

Robert

Robert,

I'm hunting in Indiana where there is a three week firearm season where you can use shotgun or ML. That is followed by a ML season of 3 weeks. There is no rifle season. So, other than bow, I will be using ML exclusively for deer hunting. This makes me want a quality rifle at a good price w/ a solid warranty. Also, I don't care if it's the ramrod or the trigger anything about something being generic turns me off. The SS version of the NEF is $230. In comparison I can get the Wolverine 26" SS w/ thumbhole for 271.75 or the T/C BD XR 26" SS for $291. I will be spending at least 230, but if I spend 40-60 more I'm getting incredibly proven and well backed rifles with great warranty's. For me that ended any thought of the Sidekick.

cayugad,

Is the Knight easier to clean because of the shorter barrel or it's design? I ask because I will be getting the 26" barrel whether I go Wolverine or BlackDiamond.

Thanks again to both of you.

Dave

Yo David i concur with Cayugad. You can't go wrong with either ML. I have a Blk. Dia. SS Express XR its a great shooter all the way around.I have put my safety on fire an put right thumb on receiver butt & index finger on cocking lever squeeze trigger while holding lever & bolt will close over primer or cap for closed breech. Try it in store while its empty & you will see what i am talking about. When its loaded do it in safe area for safety reasons ! Pick one !

The Wolverine is easier to clean because after the barrel is removed from the stock there is one screw that holds the trigger assembly in place. Once that is removed it is like cleaning a pipe. The Black Diamond is a little more complicated and you have to clean from the breech to the muzzle to avoid pushing anything back into the trigger assembley. On the Wolverine once the trigger is pulled it makes no difference. Also the Black Diamond's striker assembly is a little bit of a pain to pull. You remove the locking back lug and spring assembly then you pull the striker back, then you have to reach into the breech with your fingers or something and push that striker just a little more backward to where you can get a grip on it. In the Wolverine, you unscrew the back part and pull the whole striker assembly out the back end of the rifle in one piece. The Wolverine is also more easy to clean at the range if you like....

I bought my Wolverine from Natchez.Com for $149.00 . Mine shoots the #11 caps and I have not had a single problem with the rifle and the ignition at all. The Black Diamond XR shoots the 209 primers. I have noticed that after about seven shots, the 209 nipple seems to get loose, and at times the rifle will actually drop the primer if you tilt the barrel upwards. All you need do is clean the nipple with a Q-tip and it solved the problem. The Black Diamond also seems to get a lot of blow back out of the breech. The Wolverine is not so bad.

HD are 209s legal in IN? If so I would recommend getting a 26" black on black Wolverine with the 209Disc already in it from the factory. You are just wasting your money getting thumbholes and SS on such a rifle. SS doesnt do anything for blackpowder guns, thats just a misconception put out by folks to lazy to properly clean their rifles. Put the extra cash into a good quick detach scope mount system (I am assuming you can use scopes on your ML at least one of the two seasons you mentioned). I would recommend the Warne quick detach as my first pick. I had the exact setup on my 22" Wolverine for over 12 years and never had a glitch. If you cant find one then look at Weaver Grand Slam bases (they are steel) with Leupold QRW rings. I would recommend a 10plus powered scope with mildots scope. Put 3pellets of 777 in her and top it off with 250grain SSTs with MAGNUM sabots. With the right scope, some slight ability and a lil practice you have a darn near 300yd rig. I would MUCH rather shoot that than some danged ol 150yd dove gun with slugs.

Now if you cant use 209s then get a plain jane old 22" Wolverine with #11s and put a RedHott nipple in it. Load it with 100grains of Pyrodex pellets (keep the blackpowder side down, the 11s need all the help they can get) and load a 200grain Barnes Red Hot over the top of it. You will then have a 150yd smokepole that will dump ANY deer you dare shoot at. I would recommend the same scope mount setup but you would only need a quality 2x7 or 3x9 scope atop the lil rifle.

As with ANY blackpowder rifle, the key is keeping it clean from the day you first take it home in the box. My dozen plus year old Wolverine still looks just like the ones we have in the rack at work. I just never let it sit over 1 or 2 days after being fired before I properly cleaned it. In all honesty thats why I had such a good scopemount system put on it. Easily and quickly removing the scope sure makes it easier to properly clean the rifle.

Now if you are allowed to and can get the money, lets talk about the Savage smokeless!!!
RA

My vote goes the T/C BDXR. I just think it is a little more versatile.

BTW, I too would go with detachable rings and bases. It just makes cleaning, changing between seasons, etc easier. However my vote goes to the Leupold QR system. They make detachable rings and bases specifically for the black diamond. I've taken my scope on and off probably 30+ times since i last sighted it in, and its still dead on.

Just FYI, given the $$$ you said you were willing to spend you may be able to get the OMega with a sythetic stock. Gander Mountain had them the day after Thanksgiving for $275 but I am not sure if that sale is still on. Might be worth checking on the internet.

With your level of experience in ML, won't make a hill of beans difference. Bud, if you are planning to do all this before Saturday, then maybe ought to consider next year.

I go for Knight. I don't like the black diamond much. The omega and encore are decent. I have a wolverine (actually for sale) and it shoots great. So maybe biased a tad.