watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

If I was you and you owned a winchester muzz gun I would get rid of that POS. Mine blew up today at the range after only 60 to 70 rounds through it. Noone was hurt at all but scared the hell out of me and the other shooting next to me. I have no idea what happened, but i will never own another muzzleloader from winchester again.[:@]

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Well I am sure glad to hear that no one was injured. Although having a rifle blow up on me would not tend to cause me to have a lot of respect for the brand. Winchester is a BPI product which includes a lot more then just Winchester.

What kind of load were you shooting when the rifle blew? I sure hope that BPI will come forward and stand behind what the sell. This is a very serious incident....

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

I was shooting 110 grains of tripple 7 and a 275 grain power belt. Everything was seated firmly and nothing I did to cause this. I am at a loss of words as to what happened and a loss of one pair of shorts. All i can say is that they better handle this speedy and profesionally. I have a hunt that starts in 4.5 weeks. I honestly think I am screwed.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Muzz30 good luck in your quest for justice on this. That load should not have caused any damage to the rifle in my opinion. I could see this happen if the barrel was stressed or something, or even if you loaded it wrong, but in normal operation that barrel should have held. I many times shoot loads which I am sure would produce greater barrel pressures then that.

I have a CVA Staghorn Magnum made by BPI. So this is a real eye opener. I still think my rifle is safe, but with this happening it sure makes you wonder the next time you load and shoot.

Please keep us posted on how BPI treats you over this matter. I am real glad you, or no one else was hurt, but your right. You need to get moving to make hunting season....

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Heh I have a cva hunterbolt. I know that even with a 150 grains pyrodex it only produce a chamber pressure of about 16,000 psi but any muzzle loader can withstand even higher pressures. A friend of mine told me about a test that was done on BPI muzzle loaders that they have tested them all the way up to pressures of twice of what a 150 grains of pyrodex produces that would be in the range of 32,000 psi. I beleive that too, since the same friend conducted his own test with a CVA staghorn he double charged it with 4 pyrodex pellets 200 grains of pyrodex he rigged the trigger so he could stand behind a wall when it was fired, it fired fine no signs of excessive pressure or stressing he loaded it again this time with 5 pyrodex pellets 250 grains of powder this time the it breeched but only cracking the barrel from the reciever up to about the last 8 inches of the barrel. in this case I know BPI makes a good rifle I would put my money on the idea that Muzz30 did something funny. I hope you know that with trip 7 if you use a traditional powder measure you are supposed to cut the charge back by 20 percent since it only takes about 80% in volume of trip 7 tp perform the same as pyrodex so basically if you measure 150 of trip seven in a blackpowder measure you should actually only measure out 120 grains to perform the same as pyrodex so in all actuallity your 110 grains of trip 7 could have really been 140 grains. I'm really hoping it was your error and not the quality of BPI gun that caused your incident. I'm sorry if that sounds heartless but its the truth I'm sure cayugad feels the same way. either way keep us posted on what turns out on your ordeal I would like to know if i should get rid of CVA or not.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Sorry to hear about your ML. I can only say, when they send you a new barrell, I would turn around and sell the gun. Get another ML. I too have a CVA, the Firebolt, and I have shot 150 grains out of it with no problems, but I have lowered the load to under 100 grains.

The CVA Optima pro is a nice shooting ML. I have a friend that just picked one up and he is very happy with it.

I'm also glad no one was hurt.

Tom

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Blaming me is pretty ballsy considering you know nothing about me! I did nothing wrong as the range master was standing there watching me shoot as were other guys. The winchester rep came to the store today and took the gun imedietly and told the salesman to upgrade me to the Apex and dont ask any questions and he left. That tells me there is a problem and he hauled ass. Well I got the new Apex stainless camo and traded it for a real muzzleloader ( Omega). I have been hunting with muzzleloaders for 10 years now and have not had a problem or accident yt till this jewel. I resent the blame being put on me. I am not an expert but i know what I was doing and there was nothing i did to cause this.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

At 110 grains of 777, at 20% more powerfull than pyrodex, that would be the equivalent of 132 grains equivalent of pyrodex, well within the stated tolerances of the gun. Muz has been shooting muzzleloaders for over 10 years, so I feel confident that if he says it was not his fault, it wasn't.

Wonder if it could have anything to do with the fluted barrel?

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

The load you were shooting should have been more then safe. I am also sure that someone who has been around muzzleloaders as long as you have did not make some stupid mistake. I am convinced this was not your fault. Perhaps some day you might actually know the reason the rifle failed.

Also as you said, the actions of the Winchester rep tends to make one think they might want this matter forgotten real fast. The big problem is there are others out there using and depending on BPI products which now may have that little hint of doubt in the back of their mind about the safety of their rifles. As I stated before, I have a CVA Staghorn Magnum and I think it is a great rifle. Do I trust it 100%? That is a good question.

The big questions that need to be answered are, was this a fluke barrel? Was this one that slipped past someone somewhere? With all the BPI rifles out there, these are very important questions. I think I might have demanded a formal explaination from the Winchester Rep after they discovered the reason the barrel failed. Another thing to watch for is a sudden recall of Winchester rifles for any reason.

As for them upgrading you to a Apex, that is the least they could have done. Actually he should have offered to trade you to any rifle in the store. The Omega is a great rifle. It will serve you well. Put 100 grains of your Triple Se7en with a 250 grain Shockwave in there. If it is anything like my Black Diamond XR the groups you will shoot will astound you.

Again, good luck and thank goodness no one was hurt......

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Well I thought it was funny that i told the salesman i wa on my way down to talk with the rep and in the 10 minute drive he had hauled ass and the gun was with him. i dont know what they will come up with but he went around telling the guys in the store it was a short start problem. I call bull ****!! I did not put the bullet in the barrel and not push it down and seat it properly. I think he was making up some quick excuse and he split. I know there is lemons in everything and I just happened to get one. But I think he should have stayed there to talk to me and make things right, As far as just giving me a Apex is not making things right but it was a very good start as far as getting me back into a new gun. To bad it was another Winchester. I have a winchester super X 2 that i love. I will keep it. I have heard good things about the Omega and hope mine will shoot as well as the winchester did. I was getting some awsome groups out of it. I will shoot the power belts probobly in 348 grain because I dont care much for sabots. If anyone has a better flatter shooting cinicle please let me know.

Thanks and good luck to you all this fall. Muzz30

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

In Muzzleloadingforum.com, they were discussing the barrels on these guns and CVA's I believe only being tested to like 10KPSI from Spain, I believe and possible dange to shooting 150gr pyrodex loads even though they say you can. I blew off the post, and figured a company like them would know better. Could be something, could be nothing. It would be cool if youcould post a picture. Did it just crack? Blow the chamber out?

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

That is the exact reason why I do blame you, But I am not directly blaming your expertise but sometimes people make mistakes. The part about the winchester rep hauling balls after giving you a new rifle makes me really wonder now. Really makes me wonder since I too shoot a BPI gun. I'm gonna do a little investigation of my own and find out what is wrong with their rifles. Was that one that blew up a Winchester X-150? thats winchesters first BP rifle right? was it blued or stainless? I had no intention to piss you off, I would think you would understand since we do not have control over the guns quality but we do have control over wether we make a mistake or not. On that note since I shoot a BPI rifle I would rather it be your mistake and not the gun but since now its seems it was deffinately the gun, because of how the rep acted I am honestly a little affraid to shoot my BP rifle now. I hope that sheds a little light on what I was trying to say in my last post.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Dump that Eurotrash and buy a Savage 10ML-II. Proofed to 129,000psi by the factory and made with the same grade of steel as a CF rifle. You could shoot 300grains+ of T7 and not even come close to blowing it up. For that matter, I don't think that you'd get Knight or T/C to tell you exactly what they proof their barrels to either. I bet they don't want the general shooting public to know just how close they come to the max pressures with 150gr charges.

Look at your barrel and see if there are any proofing marks present... I'll bet that you won't get BPI to tell you what pressure they proof their guns to, if they do at all.

Some interesting reading on this topic:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/no_standards.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm

Mike

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

a friend of mine had the same thing happen to him but it was with a omega but ended up being the powder he bought was missed labled and not for muzzle loader use he had the powder checked and ended up with a new gun. He uses 777 also nd he was told that it has happened before with miss labeling something to check into

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Driftrider, thanks for all that information. I have two traditions inlines the long distance and the Champion 2000. The long distance seems to have the same barrel as there latest Evolution Premier that is advertised for 150 grains. My manuals both have recommendations to use 100 grains or less. Go figure??? I also would like to know what Winchester has to say, Please keep us posted. Here’s an idea, can we start a pole on this thread with our names and concerns and send it to Winchester demanding an explanation!!! May be one of you experts can word it properly.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Funny, in Cabelas today, I saw a Knight American for $110, an American made rifle. I talked to salesman about them, and comparing to the CVA Hunter-Bolt, which I own. I told him about subject of this thread. He said he never heard of a barrel exploding, unless it was because of improper loading. He did say they, Cabelas, doesn't stock Savage's because they don't warranty their barrels. I have not had any problems with my CVA, and don't plan to change, at least for the moment. But then, I never load more than 100 grs of tabs.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Then that salesman was either ignorant, or feeding you a load of crap to steer you toward something he actually sells.

Here's the proof scanned out of my 10ML-II manual:

Mike

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Another thing to consider is the negative anti-Savage marketing campaigns by several companies, including Knight, T/C and Hodgdon. Almost immediately after the 10ML came out, all three companies released "safety advisories" stating to the effect that NO muzzleloader whatsoever is safe with smokeless powder. Of course, they hadn't tested the 10ML themselves, nor did they have ANY evidence whatsoever that the 10ML was in any way dangerous. Nope, these announcements were mearly a ploy to ensure that a superior product didn't snatch their market share right out from under their noses. Think about it...both Knight and T/C are the two MAJOR ML manufacturers in the U.S., and neither one has anything that comes close to the performance of the Savage and they know it. And Hodgdon makes both Pyrodex and Triple Seven, the two most popular volumetric black powder substitutes. All three companies would take major economic hits if the 10ML took over as the most popular ML rifle in the U.S. So they did their best to slander the Savage and poison the minds of the ML community against it from the start, and by and large it's worked.

When I was looking to buy my 10ML-II, I went down to Scheel's to see if they had one, which they didn't. When I asked the sales manager if he would be carrying them for the fall, he immediately went off on a tyrade about how he wasn't going to carry them because he'd HEARD from "a couple people" (I could tell he was BS'ing me) that the Savages were dangerous. When I told him that they were proofed to 129,000psi he wouldn't believe me because one or two undisclosed and probably imaginary people told him that the gun would blow up. Of course, he'd never witnessed it himself, nor had he personally known of someone who had had one blow up, but he based his opinion on hearsay. But he told me that he didn't want to risk the personal liability by selling the Savage. This coming from a guy who sells an extensive line of handloading supplies, all of which if improperly used could cause ANY CF firearm to blow up. I've also PERSONALLY watched a Remington M700 BDL blow out its magazine, follower and floorplate with an overly hot handload. Yet he still willingly carries an extensive line of handloading tools and supplies, as well as numerous M700's of all shapes and sizes. Basically, this guy was giving me his personal opinion and using a made up anecdote to justify it. He was full of crap, just like the companies who used their standing within the ML community to poison people against Savage to protect their market share.

I'm simply trying to get the facts out about the Savage and make people see that the Savage is not only safer than any other ML out there regardless of propellant used. The following are the simple facts:

The 10ML is made of the safe smokeless gunbarrel steel as a CF rifle. This steel is MUCH harder than the soft steels used for making normal black powder ML's. Milder steel is easier and therefore cheaper to work with than the much harder steel necessary to contain the higher pressures of smokeless powder. The receiver is also made with the same materials as the CF Savage bolt action. In fact, the reciever is virtually identical with just a few minor changes to accomodate the muzzleloading ignition system.

EVERY 10ML is PROOF FIRED by Savage to a pressure of 129,000psi (that's ONE HUNDRED TWENTY-NINE THOUSAND PSI!). Like a centerfire rifle, the bore comes dirty from this proof firing. 129,000psi if TWICE the maximum average pressure of any Weatherby belted magnum rifle cartridge.

The bore and and button rifling are made to comply with the same SAMMI tolerances of their CF rifle barrels.

If recommended saboted projectiles are used, there is VIRTUALLY NO CHANCE that the 10ML will burst its barrel. Why? Because even the best sabots on the market will completely fail if exposed to roughly 50,000psi of chamber pressure. The sabot will melt and blow apart, allowing the remaining pressure to vent safely out the muzzle with the only negative effects being plastic fouling in the bore and a complete lack of accuracy downrange. 50,000psi is nowhere near the 129,000psi proof pressure of the barrel and action. The manual clearly states that saboted projectiles are the ONLY acceptable projectiles when using smokeless powder, period. It's spelled out clearly in multiple places. If someone fails to comply with this restriction and chooses to load a conical bullet with smokeless powder resulting in the destruction of the rifle, it is the shooter who was unsafe, not the rifle.

Mike

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Apparently, this is not the case as the article about a catastrophic failure of a Model 10ML II, at the following site illustrates. Note that there have also been 3 other failures of Savage muzzleloaders using smokeless powder reported to Savage. I admit that all information about all the failures is missing but this certainly casts a shadow on the safety claims of using smokeless powder in the Savage. Also, it sounds as if this happened months ago but Savage has yet to come forward with any statement or warnings. Apparently, those warning that smokeless powder in a muzzleloader was just a formula for an accident were correct.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

What a screwy publication. One article brags about Savage ML, another article warns about using the very stuff (smokeless) the first article triumphs.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Wow, does people actually believe some of the guys behind the counter anymore. I have yet to see too many that actually hunts or uses the products they push. They usually go by hearsay and general store myths.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Hey no offense taken, but i am man enough to admit that if i made a mistake then I would admit it. I posted this up so all was aware of what happened, not to bash me for a mistake I did not make. I dont give a rats ass what the cabelas salesman says or the winchester rep says. I did not mis load the fricken gun! I am far from a preofesional but love to muzzleload and I shoot it till I find a load that works and then I am done, I stick with it and dont mess with anything else. I just want a fricken gun manufactured right and stop cutting corners with this cheap ****. Make a damn gun with real materials and put your nuts on the line if anything happens to it. We are paying for there guns and putting our lives on the line by shooting it. The best they could od is use top notch materieals. I made a comment about getting rid of all my Winchesters and i regret saying that because Winchester has been around for years and has made great products. I just cant believe they are putting there name on a gun with a ****ty barrel. For the guy who asked the gun split like a banna from the muzzle to the stock. Three different petal just layed out. If it were something in the barrel the barrel would have more then likely blown up and not split. I dont know what the hell happened but it happened and scared the piss out of me and i took it upon myself to post it up and let all know what has happened. It should explain its self that the rep hauled ass after he got the gun and would not stick around till I got there. Nuff said.

Good luck this fall you all and please be safe. Muzz30

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

on that note I've heard of Hodgdon miss labeling powder too. If I remember correctly about 10 years ago there was a lot of I think it was hodgdon Universal shotgun pistol powder was mislabeled and it was recalled the bottles actually had rifle propellant in them that hodgdon doesnt even market labeled as Universal. Also hodgdon just a put another powder recall out on a specific lot number of LIL'GUN powder. I wouldnt doubt that it is a case of mislabeling aswell.

Your gun blowing up may have had nothing to do with winchester or BPI, your trip 7 may not have actually been trip 7.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

No kidding this thread has gone pretty far, I would love to hear what winchester has to say

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Actually winchester is not winchester, Winchester is actually just the name US repeating arms puts on their winchester reproductions and newer designs. And winchester ammuniton is not winchester ammuntion, Winchester is just the name Olin corporations puts on their ammunition.
Winchester doesn't actually exist anymore.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Well I believe the people at Cabelas, particularly those in the gun dept, have a working knowledge of their wares. The fellow in the ML dept, indicated to me that he test-fires new arrived guns. I tend to believe that, in this case, something was wrong with the powder.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Not really. Toby's, and his site, had beeen sponsered by Savage he naturally praised the Savage ML before, since he was essentially working for Savage. In the article about the exploding barrel, he admits that he has been a major proponent of the Savage, using smokeless powders. I understand that his relationship with Savage has now been dissolved. I don't know which party wanted the breakup, but I would bet the failed barrel and publication of the facts, and pictures of the failure, had something to do with that.

Since this incident, Toby has obviously, and understandably, changed his view on the Savage ML, with smokeless powders. The story on his, and other, failed barrels just went on the web site yesterday, before they had time to redo the earlier articles about the Savage. If you visit the site now, you will find those earlier articles are gone and there is a statement from Toby announcing his new policy to only work with "non-smokeless" rifles now.

Mr Bridges change of heart, about the Savage rifles, might have been financially motivated, but I think that a rifle blowing up in his face might have been a factor. also. I certainly applaud him for making the information about the failed barrels public and admitting that he was wrong about the safety of smokeless powders in a muzzleloader, even one that is supposed to be designed for it. This is information the public should know and it hasn't been put out by Savage. There are some misconceptions about the safety of the Savage already out there, as Driftrider's post illustrates, that need to be addressed, before they help lead to more, possibly even fatal accidents.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

===============================================

Hodgdon has been known to occassionally leave an overhead feeding tube of Pyrodex behind for the first few jugs of 777 at the filling station of their plant, but to the best of my knowledge, no cartridge smokeless powder is bottled or kept at that facility.

Last year, I smelled sulfur while shooting my 777. I returned the 1/2-used jug that I estimated was at least one-third filled with Pyrodex Select by HAZMAT-regulated method & was rewarded with a very generous supply of 777 powder a week later.

Great folks at Hodgon Inc.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Well, Muzz, I feel your pain. Alot of people just critisize. I do appreciate you taking your time to come on here and explain your problem. The problem here is people get emotional when you may talk about a gun they might have.

Thanks for your posting.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

I agree, takes a big man to admit he might have been wrong. And Toby did. Probably hit the ole ego. But you know, he has credability. And thats priceless.

But what he fails to explain in this article is he was almost 5gr over recommended. Not that 1 or 2gr they say you might have to experiment with. Anybody that reloads understands 5gr can be the difference in 55KPSI and 90KPSI. He really doesn't go into much detail on what savage explains.

I think he is the victim of his own knowledge and experience. When I used to do alot of electrical work, it wasn't the scared new engineers recieving RF burns and electrical shocks so much as it was the ones who has done it a million times. I know a rifle that I have overloaded 20 times in a row, I wouldn't have complete trust that the action doesn't have stress cracks in it.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Or perhaps Toby's change of heart is akin to the pilot who survives a plane crash and never flys again, denouncing human flight as unsafe. Even if some part of the plane failed causing the crash doesn't mean that all aircraft of that type are dangerous. And lets not discount "pilot error."

Bridges was intentionally overloading the gun, and admits it. Like the saying goes, "if you play with fire, sooner or later you're going to be burned." He regularly played with fire by pushing the gun beyond its limits, and he got burned. Thankfully it didn't cause him serious injury or death. I'd bet that if someone regularly and intentionally shot 200+ grains of T7 in their BPI ML they'd blow it up too, but that wouldn't mean that the gun was unsafe with a recommended 100gr load.

People are quick to accept the explanation that the blown up Winchester (BPI) was due to a defective gun, and it may well have been. Has anyone considered that the Savage in question was made with a defect that went undetected in the proofing process. A tiny microfracture of the steel in the barrel, after hundreds of shots, many of which were overloaded, could have turned the minor defect into what we see in those pictures.

I guess my point is that there is insufficient evidence to indicate that the Savage 10ML is unsafe because of four reports of failure, at least two of which involved the shooter intentionally loading the gun with powders or powder quantities in not recommended in the manual and proven safe. The other two failures are of unknown cause. So we have four reported failures, two of which were partially or completely the fault of the shooters and two that are unsubstanciated reports where the cause is unknown. Yet Savage has made and sold THOUSANDS of 10ML's in the 5 years since they were introduced. That being the case the catastrophic failure rate from all causes (human and otherwise) is well under 1%, and more likely around 0.1% or less. Toby himself states he's fired more than 35,000 shots with an 10ML and smokeless powder. One failure out of 35,000 shots fired works out to 0.0029%. Sounds pretty safe to me.

I would also like to know just how much bad blood there is no between Bridges and Savage. That might also have something to do with his change of tune.

Mike

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

==============================================

Driftrider

I don't keep up-to-date with smokeless MLs because I personally believe that if you want NOT to see smoke, then stick with the centerfires for best results.. even in conditions that occur once every 15-20 years where you wish you had that extra 25-50 yard distance to reach that distant buck in the field.

Can you break-down for me how much more powder Toby was using in comparison to a regular ML -- that he shouldn't of used?
For instance: Was he approximently 20 grains of blackpowder too much... 10 .. or 30... etc.

The reason I ask is because the number of grains you provided didn't seem like alot in comparison to regular ML powders -- which a person can almost double before a barrel blows up while the bullet is properly seated.

Was Toby using 25-75% more powder than he should of? If your answer is only 25%, then Savage muzzleloaders are indeed dangerous because their tolerances for barrel blowups should be 50-100% more powder before it blows.

These are my opinions Savage lovers... no replier-attacks please!

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

driftrider, Very good post and very true. We don't know all the facts.

I mean, would you buy a 44mag off me, that I regularly loaded 240gr cast bullets with 26gr of H110 instead of the recommended max of 24gr. And never had a issue of it. besides the primers cratering? I bet you wouldn't.

I knew a guy that loaded regularly, a 30-06 with 3 extra grains of 4350 I believe with 165gr bullets. He said he could easily get 3050fps with this combo and he has shot it 500 times or so. Well one day the action cracked. Fortunately the gun wouldn't fire cause the unnoticed cracked action wouldn't let the fireing pin make contact. That was only 3gr.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Triple, thats almost impossible to do. You really never see more than 30KPSI with BP or 777 or pyrodex. But with smokeless, its a different story. I would guess, I say guess, with his load, he went up in pressure over 90KPSI. Centerfires generally are less than 60K. When you reach max, the pressures get erratic fast. And so does velocity. So 5gr is significant. I would equate it to shooting 150gr of goex in a sidelock only able to handle 16KPSI with 90gr of goex. But thats just a guess.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Since Toby notes he fired the savage 35000 times or so I think it possible that he double loaded the powder. I work in evaluating incidents and with high repetitions there are always mistakes that the mistakee swears could not have happened. He is a true story. We had trouble with personnel putting the wrong hazard labels or missing a label on outgoing shipments. We instituted that the sign installer take Poloride pictures of each side of the truck for the record. A truck was stopped with no signs installed and the installer was told. The installer swore he installed the proper signs and said lets go look at the pictures I took. As you guessed the pictures he took of the signs showed that all four signs were not put on the truck. It is very common in high repetition work to make incredibly unbelievable mistakes that you just know you could not have made.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

The recommended load for XMP-5744 is 44 grains. Bridges had shot and undisclosed number of shots at 48 grains (9.1% over max by weight) before firing the 49 grain load (11.4% over max by weight) that blew the gun up.

With smokeless powders, burn rates and pressure levels depend on both the amount of powder, the design of the powder (powder specific burn rate) and also the pressure it's burned at. When pressure levels in a smokeless firearm reach a certain level the burn rate and pressure levels can spike erratically. That's why load manuals for smokeless arms have MAX loads that should NEVER be exceeded under any circumstances by a reloader who lacks a fully equipped ballistics lab with pressure test equipment. The Savage is no different.

With black powder and substitutes the burn rates and pressure curves are very different. And because the BP and volumetric subs are so inefficient and require air to burn (black powder combusts, whereas smokeless powder decomposes), there can be no direct comparison made between the effects of overcharging with T7 and smokeless powder. A 10% overcharge of smokeless can, as Bigcountry mentioned, easily create pressure excursions in on the order of 90,000psi or more.

So yes, the Savage is different and must be loaded more cautiously with more attention to detail than it's black powder shooting cousins. It's no different than the care and attention to detail that a CF smokeless cartridge handload must excercise when loading CF cartridges. But failure on the shooters part to heed published load maxes or excercise due caution when loading a 10ML doesn't make the gun unsafe, it makes the shooter an idiot asking for trouble. Of course, the same could be said for those who knowingly load more that the max recommended loads of T7 and such in their muzzleloaders as well.

The moral of the story is this...if you are unable to take the time to learn how to properly load a Savage, or unwilling to stick with the published loads, then the Savage (and all other ML's in the case of the latter category) are NOT for you. The Savage 10ML-II is for experienced, yet cautious shooters only. Idiots and hot-rodders need not apply. Toby Bridges hsould have known better than to do what he was doing. He pushed the envelop and was rewarded with a blown up rifle. The guy who used 'Lil Gun is in the same boat.

This incident is a classic example of someone deferring blame, a trait common among the anti-gun types, but one that apparently can also be found among gun enthusiests as well. Bridges intentionally and repeatedly overloaded the gun, and then has the gall to call it unsafe and defers fault to the gun and to Savage for his own folly. Bridges has no one to blame but himself, IMO.

Because some of us want the option of both greater performance and most importantly the added convienience of smokeless powder, and cannot use CF rifles to hunt deer (legally) in their state. And regardless of the powder type, the Savage is still a ML with the inherent limitations thereof. Cloud of white smoke or not, I only get one shot just like everybody else. I just don't have to worry about my barrel rusting out overnight if I don't hightail it back home to clean my gun.

Mike

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

I personally agree with driftrider and all the other Savage Owners/users. This goes for anyone that shoots a muzzleloader or rifle for that matter, no matter what brand. The people who make these rifles usually offer what they feel are safe loading procedures and loads they feel the product can handle in a safe manner.

When I read a incident of a rifle blowing up or something terrible happening, I always wonder what the cause was. In the case of Mr. Bridges I think it is clear. He overstepped the capabilities the rifle was able to handle. The result was a blown barrel and thank goodness no one injured.

This incident in my opinion or view in no way reflects on the quality of the Savage rifle. What it should suggest to Savage owners is the need to pay strict attention to the guidelines and loading practices that are set fourth by the company.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

I used to live 30 minutes from their Shawnee Mission, KS bottling plant, I have visited it on Occassion ( sometimes you could get a deal on powder) and they Bottle and package everything there. All of Hodgdon's powders are manufactured in Australia and then shipped to Shawnee Mission, KS where it is bottled and packaged. And from what I've heard is on occassion that sombody messes up either by the conatianer that came from australia is mismarked or someone accidently dumps the wrong powder into the hopper prior to bottling. But they usually catch it before hand atleast so they say. I like to think and trust that hodgdon does catch the mistake before any of it leaves the plant since thats about the only powder I use, I use Vectan, clays, tite wad, and tite group. I would say hodgdon has the best and cleanest burning powders.

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

Muzz30,

I to appreciate your info. I'm new to MLing and appreciate all info, good or bad.

dog1

RE: watch out for winchester muzzleloaders
 

I looked up the load data on the Savage site. The chart gives a weight range of 41-44 grains for the XMP-5744 powder. However, these are referred to as recommended loads and no where is there any mention of a maximum recommended load for it or any of the other powders listed. You could assume the 44 grains is the maximum recomended load, since it is the highest figure listed, but Savage confuses things somewhat by adding a statement that says one should try 1 or 2 grains more, or less, for a particular load. With this in mind, the maximum load listed would be 46 grains, but wouldn't it be clearer, and safer, for Savage to plainly and clearly state a maximum recommended load.

If you read the whole article, you find that one of the other failures was caused by a powder that is not on Savage's load recommendations, yet it was stated that the load was recommended by a Savage engineer. Of course we can't know for sure if it actually was. However, the article does point out another statement in Savage's load recommendations which states that the rifle is "designed, engineered and built to handle the higher pressures of modern smokeless propellants such as those listed". This is somewhat ambiguous and I think Savage should be much clearer on acceptable powders and maximum recommended loads for each.

The thing that really concerns me is that there appears to be a perception among some Savage users that it is virtually impossible to overload the rifle to create a dangerous pressure situation, when using plastic sabots, because the sabots will fail from the high pressure and act as a safety release, therefore avoiding any dangerous pressures in the barrel. I have read this several times, from different persons. Toby was specifically testing for sabot failure and the 48 grain load apparently showed no signs of extreme pressure on the spent primer or recovered sabot, yet the first attempt with the 49 grain load blew up the barrel. With the other pressure related failures, it certainly appears that the sabot will not fail before creating a dangerous situation. There are also stories all over the internet about how Savage purposely abused their rifles, with extreme loads, and could cause no damage. Such stories only add to the dangerous perceptions of some and increase the possibility of an accident.

Lastly, some, including representatives of muzzleloader manufactures other than Savage, have stated that using smokeless powder in a muzzleloader, even one designed for it, is a set up for some serious accidents. Many passed this off as sour grapes statements, but I believe it is fair to say that there is much less room for loading error, with smokeless powders, than with blackpowder or substitutes. Since Savage can not control the loading procedures of all those who buy and use their rifles, these statements do have some validity. Therefore, I believe it is paramount that Savage starts to do a better job of safety education, including much more specific load recommendations and actively countering any public misconceptions .