In Muzzleloadingforum.com, they were discussing the barrels on these guns and CVA's I believe only being tested to like 10KPSI from Spain, I believe and possible dange to shooting 150gr pyrodex loads even though they say you can. I blew off the post, and figured a company like them would know better. Could be something, could be nothing. It would be cool if youcould post a picture. Did it just crack? Blow the chamber out?

That is the exact reason why I do blame you, But I am not directly blaming your expertise but sometimes people make mistakes. The part about the winchester rep hauling balls after giving you a new rifle makes me really wonder now. Really makes me wonder since I too shoot a BPI gun. I'm gonna do a little investigation of my own and find out what is wrong with their rifles. Was that one that blew up a Winchester X-150? thats winchesters first BP rifle right? was it blued or stainless? I had no intention to piss you off, I would think you would understand since we do not have control over the guns quality but we do have control over wether we make a mistake or not. On that note since I shoot a BPI rifle I would rather it be your mistake and not the gun but since now its seems it was deffinately the gun, because of how the rep acted I am honestly a little affraid to shoot my BP rifle now. I hope that sheds a little light on what I was trying to say in my last post.

Dump that Eurotrash and buy a Savage 10ML-II. Proofed to 129,000psi by the factory and made with the same grade of steel as a CF rifle. You could shoot 300grains+ of T7 and not even come close to blowing it up. For that matter, I don't think that you'd get Knight or T/C to tell you exactly what they proof their barrels to either. I bet they don't want the general shooting public to know just how close they come to the max pressures with 150gr charges.

Look at your barrel and see if there are any proofing marks present... I'll bet that you won't get BPI to tell you what pressure they proof their guns to, if they do at all.

Some interesting reading on this topic:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/no_standards.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm

Mike

a friend of mine had the same thing happen to him but it was with a omega but ended up being the powder he bought was missed labled and not for muzzle loader use he had the powder checked and ended up with a new gun. He uses 777 also nd he was told that it has happened before with miss labeling something to check into

Driftrider, thanks for all that information. I have two traditions inlines the long distance and the Champion 2000. The long distance seems to have the same barrel as there latest Evolution Premier that is advertised for 150 grains. My manuals both have recommendations to use 100 grains or less. Go figure??? I also would like to know what Winchester has to say, Please keep us posted. Here’s an idea, can we start a pole on this thread with our names and concerns and send it to Winchester demanding an explanation!!! May be one of you experts can word it properly.

Funny, in Cabelas today, I saw a Knight American for $110, an American made rifle. I talked to salesman about them, and comparing to the CVA Hunter-Bolt, which I own. I told him about subject of this thread. He said he never heard of a barrel exploding, unless it was because of improper loading. He did say they, Cabelas, doesn't stock Savage's because they don't warranty their barrels. I have not had any problems with my CVA, and don't plan to change, at least for the moment. But then, I never load more than 100 grs of tabs.

Then that salesman was either ignorant, or feeding you a load of crap to steer you toward something he actually sells.

Here's the proof scanned out of my 10ML-II manual:

Mike

Another thing to consider is the negative anti-Savage marketing campaigns by several companies, including Knight, T/C and Hodgdon. Almost immediately after the 10ML came out, all three companies released "safety advisories" stating to the effect that NO muzzleloader whatsoever is safe with smokeless powder. Of course, they hadn't tested the 10ML themselves, nor did they have ANY evidence whatsoever that the 10ML was in any way dangerous. Nope, these announcements were mearly a ploy to ensure that a superior product didn't snatch their market share right out from under their noses. Think about it...both Knight and T/C are the two MAJOR ML manufacturers in the U.S., and neither one has anything that comes close to the performance of the Savage and they know it. And Hodgdon makes both Pyrodex and Triple Seven, the two most popular volumetric black powder substitutes. All three companies would take major economic hits if the 10ML took over as the most popular ML rifle in the U.S. So they did their best to slander the Savage and poison the minds of the ML community against it from the start, and by and large it's worked.

When I was looking to buy my 10ML-II, I went down to Scheel's to see if they had one, which they didn't. When I asked the sales manager if he would be carrying them for the fall, he immediately went off on a tyrade about how he wasn't going to carry them because he'd HEARD from "a couple people" (I could tell he was BS'ing me) that the Savages were dangerous. When I told him that they were proofed to 129,000psi he wouldn't believe me because one or two undisclosed and probably imaginary people told him that the gun would blow up. Of course, he'd never witnessed it himself, nor had he personally known of someone who had had one blow up, but he based his opinion on hearsay. But he told me that he didn't want to risk the personal liability by selling the Savage. This coming from a guy who sells an extensive line of handloading supplies, all of which if improperly used could cause ANY CF firearm to blow up. I've also PERSONALLY watched a Remington M700 BDL blow out its magazine, follower and floorplate with an overly hot handload. Yet he still willingly carries an extensive line of handloading tools and supplies, as well as numerous M700's of all shapes and sizes. Basically, this guy was giving me his personal opinion and using a made up anecdote to justify it. He was full of crap, just like the companies who used their standing within the ML community to poison people against Savage to protect their market share.

I'm simply trying to get the facts out about the Savage and make people see that the Savage is not only safer than any other ML out there regardless of propellant used. The following are the simple facts:

The 10ML is made of the safe smokeless gunbarrel steel as a CF rifle. This steel is MUCH harder than the soft steels used for making normal black powder ML's. Milder steel is easier and therefore cheaper to work with than the much harder steel necessary to contain the higher pressures of smokeless powder. The receiver is also made with the same materials as the CF Savage bolt action. In fact, the reciever is virtually identical with just a few minor changes to accomodate the muzzleloading ignition system.

EVERY 10ML is PROOF FIRED by Savage to a pressure of 129,000psi (that's ONE HUNDRED TWENTY-NINE THOUSAND PSI!). Like a centerfire rifle, the bore comes dirty from this proof firing. 129,000psi if TWICE the maximum average pressure of any Weatherby belted magnum rifle cartridge.

The bore and and button rifling are made to comply with the same SAMMI tolerances of their CF rifle barrels.

If recommended saboted projectiles are used, there is VIRTUALLY NO CHANCE that the 10ML will burst its barrel. Why? Because even the best sabots on the market will completely fail if exposed to roughly 50,000psi of chamber pressure. The sabot will melt and blow apart, allowing the remaining pressure to vent safely out the muzzle with the only negative effects being plastic fouling in the bore and a complete lack of accuracy downrange. 50,000psi is nowhere near the 129,000psi proof pressure of the barrel and action. The manual clearly states that saboted projectiles are the ONLY acceptable projectiles when using smokeless powder, period. It's spelled out clearly in multiple places. If someone fails to comply with this restriction and chooses to load a conical bullet with smokeless powder resulting in the destruction of the rifle, it is the shooter who was unsafe, not the rifle.

Mike

Apparently, this is not the case as the article about a catastrophic failure of a Model 10ML II, at the following site illustrates. Note that there have also been 3 other failures of Savage muzzleloaders using smokeless powder reported to Savage. I admit that all information about all the failures is missing but this certainly casts a shadow on the safety claims of using smokeless powder in the Savage. Also, it sounds as if this happened months ago but Savage has yet to come forward with any statement or warnings. Apparently, those warning that smokeless powder in a muzzleloader was just a formula for an accident were correct.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/

What a screwy publication. One article brags about Savage ML, another article warns about using the very stuff (smokeless) the first article triumphs.