What is Brand Bashing?
 

What is brand Bashing

I Am CONFUSED!

On the internet it is like pulling teeth trying to find a bad review on a muzzleloader, any brand.
Knight has a post where they request the reviews of their “Satisfied” customers. It would seem to me that a bad review would be more important. As an honest review would show where improvement is needed, possibly in many areas. Bad reviews if acted upon by the manufacturer would create a more desirable product, which would probably lead to more sales.

On forums Brand Bashing is frowned upon.

If one cannot post of a bad experience with a product from a muzzleloader manufacturer, be it a gun, accessory, warranty, quality or customer service. How is anyone who is considering purchasing a brand of muzzleloader, going to get any real-time information, to make a decision on which one to purchase.
Granted, depending on the severity of treatment and dissatisfaction reviews can get “Colorful” in the heat of the moment. Good or Bad Reviews.

So, if a new shooter can only go by the reviews of the satisfied shooters and does not know personally people who take part in the sport of muzzleloading. How can the new shooter make an educated guess as to which Muzzleloader and/or Brand to buy?

Where can a new shooter get their information. Good or Bad.

Is there an acceptable way to post a bad experience with a muzzleloader. here is a little more information:
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/con...ngress-n693001

I think brand bashing would be if I said that CVA was a cheap , no good, inferior ,
Low quality piece of crap gun .













Which in my experience it is .

So if I read you right I can say "based on my experience of a purchase", a model of muzzleloader of the brand CVA is cheap, no good & inferior, low quality piece of crap gun. As long as I don't bash the entire line I am ok. Is that right.

No. You ask what brand bashing was ? The statement I made , even though it is based on my experience is still considered brand bashing by most , even though it is an honest personal experience. Just as your experience with Knight was bad . Honest reviews usually aren’t tolerated on forums is what I have found out. They usually lead to getting banned .
Seems that way anyway .

Posting a bad review of personal experience isn't considered brand bashing. Posting bad reviews on multiple threads with the intent of bashing a brand because of one bad experience, and with the explanation that to us seems to have been your own fault, is brand bashing. Your posts about Knight Rifles and your experience with one particular rifle led most all of us that know a little about muzzleloading rifles to the conclusion that your problem came from not knowing how to seat your breech plug properly because you were using the wrong tool for the job. You then furthered your bashing by advertising for a well known inferior quality product over Knight.
There are several on this forum that own and like CVA products and for the most part they are okay if you don't mind dealing with cheap un-inspected barrels and with a company that has been sued for patent infringement and injuries caused by poor barrel quality more times than my highly developed math skills can count. They seem to be producing a better quality rifle today but I'm not the type of person to deal with thieves or with a company that has absolutely no care for the safety of it's customers. If you want to shill for them, that's your choice. But to bash on a quality rifle company while advertising for a disreputable one is not a choice that most forums will allow.

i had more trouble with one well known USA manufactured muzzleloader than all the other muzzleloader guns owned in my lifetime combined.


The only CVA gun i currently own is a .50 caliber StagHorn bought in 2000. i have maintained, scoped and sighted in many dozens of inline muzzleloaders for other folks. With one exception all were good serviceable guns. That one was replaced by the manufacturer.


Riddle me this: If CVA guns are so bad why is it that they sell more muzzleloaders than all other makers combined?

CVA was never in contention with being a bad muzzleloader, The CVA inferences above were only for demonstration and clarification purposes. We could have used any brand. I own two CVA's both are excellent guns. The manufacturer has warranted one in its entirety. I am extremely glad to have that gun. In my opinion CVA recommendations are top notch in all aspects.

Could it be, that CVA absolutely floods the market with inexpensive lessor quality rifles, that the vast majority of "extended season" hunters are willing to purchase?

That's fairly easy to answer... PRICE. Since everything about them is using cheaper labor and parts they can offer them it a greatly reduced priced to control the market.

And end of seasons sales in the "Bargain Bins" used to be overflowing with imports at half of what they were selling them at.

Pretty much the same way Japan got a foot hold in the USA after dumping millions if not billions of $$$$s worth of autos in the US market during the 1970s.

They both make a fairly good product today after many years of product dumping and copying ideas such as the Omega then selling the Kodiak for half the price or less.

Lets be honest though, if CVA made such a good ML then why does Traditions/Ardesa outsell them in virtually all of Europe including Spain. Show me a shop's website in Spain that even carries a CVA/Bergara ML. Ive looked countless times with no luck. Pedersoli and Traditions/Ardesa are easy to find.

Just look at Spain's unemployment rate. Its still over 15% and just a few years ago it was over 25%. It don't take a genius to figure out you don't have to pay much in that type of economy. Their average wage charts were not exactly stellar for many many years.

Let me get this right, I cannot bash a Muzzleloader Model or Muzzleloader Manufacture. Yet you can do both, what am I missing here? Do you have some kind of immunity to being Counseled for bashing brands? Or was it because you thought I couldn't log in anymore. I am not going to get caught up in the discussion of this post. Just for your information: https://www.nbcnews.com/business/con...ngress-n693001

Then why do you keep posting about a similar topic over and over on this board and others?

I think a great question remains......Why did you basically vanish from the forums for over a year including the time you bought the Knight rifle and never once make a post asking for help?

Yeah i spent some time searching this board and MML. I didn't find anything at all about the purchase or any problems with it?

There has been no previous topic concerning this post. I thought I could get some constructive method of critiquing a gun, from the members. All of a sudden this post has gone from one thing, to bashing a Brand of muzzleloader and I feel myself. If you people can do it. More Power to you. I am just trying to find out what your secret is without being bashed or insulted to death for it.
As far as disappearing from the forum, I would think that is none of your business, to put it lightly.

I don't believe that was bashing any brand, it was actually an answer to a riddle, with very similar answers that followed by others.

Now, the truth be known, I don't care for CVA rifles. There's not a single thing about any of them that I prefer. However that doesn't mean that a CVA rifle doesn't meet the wants, needs, or price point of any other individual.
Its certainly not because I've had a bad experience with CVA's customer service, because I don't own a CVA rifle.
However, I have helped other owners setup their CVA rifles, actually Accura V2 rifles, that I shot, and they shot very well.

So.... I don't like the rifles, but those I shot, shot really well.

Just so I am clear, You insult the brand "As per your previous Post. Then you say something good about it. Does it work every time?

Saying I don't like something is not an insult, nor is saying that a manufacturer floods the market with its product.

Saying I don't like something, but that it works, is not an insult nor a promotion.

I do have a question though.... What's it going to take for you to let go of this?

your Quote:
Could it be, that CVA absolutely floods the market with inexpensive lessor quality rifles, that the vast majority of "extended season" hunters are willing to purchase?
I want to bring to your attention to inexpensive and lessor quality guns. If that is not bashing a muzzleloader manufacturer, you need to explain yourself. I am not going to reply continually to this as I think it is bashing a manufacturer. You qualified your statement I don't need any more. As far as letting this go, if I get reasonable answers to my original post I will let it go. Then I will know how to post as related on this Forum.

I dont care for them either but i have suggested many times to "newbies" to get a cheap Optima V2 as a first rifle. No sense in spending a fortune on something you are not sure you are going to like AND many of those type of posts are for "seasonal" type hunters.

There is nothing insulting/bashing about pointing out that Traditions offers nothing in SS and the alloy frame is unprotected from the 209 primer. Its an absolute fact stainless steel is more corrosion resistant than chromoly and stronger than their LT alloy.

Its also not a bash to say that Brand A has stomped Brand B and Brand C at Friendship. Its a fact that is easily proven.

I have read your post and noted. You quoted, "the Optima V2 is Cheap", wouldn't another choice of words be more enticing to a newbie. As it stands it would tend to steer a newbie away from a purchase. inferring the gun is of lessor quality.

Good grief man, get over yourself!

Truth is not bashing. It's a very well known fact that CVA uses inferior steels and they are not inspected like all barrels produced here in the US. It's pretty simple. You just seem to have a hard time grasping it or you are trying to start a little bashing war. I personally have been into muzzleloading rifles for over 40 years. My old man was an individual that several firearm manufacturers would consult and send rifles and cartridges to for testing. There are several on this forum that come from the same type of background as I and we all have a strong tendency to state our findings so that newcomers to our sport of choice don't make mistakes through lack of knowledge. I do believe that is the intention of this forum. I personally don't own a Knight nor would I consider one except for maybe a Knight Vision because I don't like bolt action type inlines due to very large fingers. Makes handling a primer a pain in the butt. Break open or drop block actions suit be much better for access. But I do know quite a few folks that do own them and they are excellent shooting rifles and quality built. The old man had a saying about CVA and their customer service, "the reason they have such good customer service is because they are so well practiced with people having to call about crappy products". Now I did hear that Knight went though some problems with CS soon after they were bought out but that supposedly has been cured. I'm under the impression they don't get a whole lot of practice if you get my drift.

Somebody describe to me what an agitator is and if it is against the rules here.

Evidently YOU are not getting the answers YOU want. Therein lies the problem.

Fact: CVA rifles are in every sporting goods store, chain stores, yard sales and almost every place they sell firearms. In many stores, its the only muzzleloader they sell. They're all over the place. Racks are full of them. I'd say they've flooded the market. If that's bashing to YOU, you'll just have to live with the facts as they are.

Fact: Compare the price of the CVA model muzzleloaders to any of the other manufacturer's muzzleloaders. They are one of the most inexpensive muzzleloaders on the market. So the fact is, they are inexpensive.

Fact: The quality doesn't compare to many of the other muzzleloaders on the market, short of maybe one. You CAN NOT build a high quality firearm, sell it as one of the most inexpensive available, and build it with high quality components. Short of importing, which means its made someplace other than the United States.

As I've stated, I don't care for CVA rifles, but have helped to setup the Accura V2 models and they shot very well.

So I have been into muzzleloading since 1984, If I get Counseled for brand bashing so should you and your friends if they do it. That's all I am going to say. I have a CVA that held up to a double charge of BH-209. How is that for proofing a barrel. All I ever told was the truth, when some people post to my information about knight, they read the truth, then make up things to the benefit of their reply. I should have just not tried to clarify as they knew exactly what they were doing. Bashing another member.

Great, good information to hear, but that was not what your first post said, you are dancing around the subject

Are the Traditions Nitrided barrels not SS?

Good grief, could you be less melodramatic.

Here is the exact quote from a recent post of mine on another board. Im not allowed to post links to competing forums here sooo.

by GM54-120 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:11 pm Followed up by

by GM54-120 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:21 pm The fact is it is CHEAP. Under $250 in SS/blac and under $350 in Nitride/camo. Pretty obvious how my use of the word was intended. Now you are grabbing at straws and pulling out tooth picks

Based on your background in metallurgical engineering, tell us exactly what steels CVA should be using and what steels CVA is currently using.

Nope all chromoly BUT the nitride is in the barrel also. Only the barrel though. Black nitride is for steels only. Their cerakote barrels are bare chromoly in the bore and none of their rifles have a removable steel firing pin bushing. The firing pin assembly itself on a CVA is easily removed and cleaned.

I cant see paying what they go for when you can buy a CVA that offers more for the same cost or less.

What steels CVA use is up to their engineers, I have never claimed otherwise, It is apparent the bashing muzzleloaders occur quite frequently on this forum, especially the CVA. Every one cannot afford a knight, you know my thoughts on that. So why would you deprive a person from buying a CVA or Traditions Gun. I know there is a reason for it, why?

Are you suffering from the after effects of too much imbibing on new years eve? No where in this entire thread has anyone come close to saying they want to deprive anyone from buying a less expensive firearm. No where! It would appear in your world, the truth is a bad thing. You got your answer to your OP several times over, the horse is dead, let it rest in peace.

I feel words like cheap and inferior is definitely describing a muzzleloader, In a bashing sense. You people have either chose not to read the first post or you are intentionally avoiding discussing the subject. I am not one to beat my head against a group of people who all have the same convictions concerning muzzleloaders. From people posting as they have they may get a PM too. I don't know, but possible. I will continue to monitor this post, who knows some one might have a pertinent reply. I am going to assume, I have been talking to the gang. I hope that was not derogatory enough to get me thrown off the forum, but that is ok.

d.winsor, You must remember that a little Fork Horn simply can not compete with Typical, Non Typical, and Giant Non Typical bucks, Just can’t be done! :hit:

I'm not normally in the BP forum (my apologies all) and was gone this weekend on a bucket trip New Year's Eve beach trip with my lovely wife so I didn't see the PM or this topic until now. In general, I'll try to answer your comments below in blue ink so it's easier to compare/contrast. We recently lost our regular BP mod (may Cayugad rest in peace) and also recently lost one of our major contributing expert members (may SuperHunt rest in peace). Both guys were outstanding gents and incredibly knowledgeable and experienced. And if either of them said there was a problem with a gun or brand, it was take to the bank stuff.

You'll pardon me if I don't bother reading what NBC News has to say about what's allowed or not in online negative reviews. They don't have much credibility with the truth nor with firearms. If you are simply unable to figure out if something is violating the rules, consult a mod--that's part of what we're here for. I don't know who is going to replace Cayugad as the BP mod or if he's going to be replaced at all. I would imagine JW and Jake will end up doing some of the moderating here but don't know how much if any moderating either wishes to do in this forum--Sometimes you guys can play rough. ;)

I will help you.
Brand bashing is constant/persistent negative reviews or opinions of a service or a product you do not like. If HNI is approached for any negative reviews, such as written here, which in the manufacturers opinion is liable or slander, HNI is obligated to turn over everything right down to the I.P. numbers. One may try to delete but trust me its written in stone. Read the rules AS you agreed to ABIDE when you joined HNI. IT is stated there.

You have clearly stated what you do and don't like. You have posted on both topics.

Time to move on.

Negative reviews on products or services is good.

Constant negative comments, or posting the same topic is not as it leads to "Brand Wars", which this forum has seen a few times.
We will not let that happen again.

JW

I appreciate your post and your perspective. I did not post directly on knights forum, I described that they wanted to "hear from their satisfied customers", it was a post on the internet. I dealt directly with knight concerning my problems, not in a post to their forum.
I got caught up in a lot of people changing the chronological order of what occurred as stated in my original post and what was said. People were forming their own story as to what they posted to. I felt I was being belittled quite a bit. I also felt I was being bashed for giving a bad Review of the Mountaineer.
I thank you for the clarification, that is all I was looking for, sorry to be a bother.

Thank you for offering to help me, but I have already got the information straight from the horses mouth. have a good day/night as it may be.