You have to start somewhere....
 

Doesn't need to be here for the enjoyment of two or three people.

To claim the Ultimate is not a custom is hogwash. Its says so right on the UF website.

No bore riders huh?...I wonder who pushed for that rule?

Sounds like a match tailored to help UF win against off the shelf rifles that cost MUCH less.

Quote:

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Please order your custom muzzleloader well in advance of when you need it as we do not stock pre-made muzzleloaders. Each is custom made to order and requires individual time & attention. Thank you!

---

Custom order Lothar Walther barrels, McMillian Stocks and $300 muzzle brakes.
$2500-$3450


Yep nothing CUSTOM about that or the Timney trigger you added. :rolleyes:

Made in Michigan just happens to be a complete coincidence too.

So i could drop a Rem Ultimate in a Mcmillian stock, add a Timney trigger, aftermarket barrel with a Harrells muzzle brake and they would let that fly too?....Kinda doubt that would go over very well.

Boooooring

Why would i be jealous?. I have a NULA which for me is a FAR better hunting rifle and cost less.

My Pacnor cost less and will smoke a UF in speed and FPE.

Jealous...too funny.

No matter how you slice it, the UF is a custom and so is a Cooper, NULA or even a Knight 500. None of them are even remotely "production" rifles.

Probably cause the flyer says production , no customs like a Bestill muzzy , yet the ultimate is not a production gun . Probably cause no bore riders , only sabots , that sets more conditions that obviously are there to eliminate competition. Sounds like a match organized , supported or paid for by Ultimate that eliminates anybody who might show the Ultimate up for what it is , an overpriced pellet gun . One that requires an ffl to boot

I dont have a pellet gun , sorry
One more to go .... who would that be? :)

You guys worry way to much about the Ultimate ML. Ive used it for a second time recently. Its very old outdated technology. It has nothing on a Nula. And to be honest, on the bench the Knight Mountaineer is better. Even though i don't like the Mountaineer, on the bench its pretty darn good. As far as the association its been corrupt for a couple years now that i know of. Its all about changing the rules so Bestil (Jeff) doesn't win. They should just ask him to retire from it and let someone else win. It would be so much easier and the association wouldn't look so bad.

This was never about hating on UF or pellets. Its just very obvious that the rules are tailored to favor a 50cal and a "hot rod" 50cal for that matter. So that leaves us with 3 main competitors when you get to cherry pick "production" standards.

You are left with UF, Cooper and Remington.

Not many 45cal shooters will opt for shooting sabots. Even the conical 45 shooters fair very well against sabot shooters in timed events. Some mighty fine scores have been shot with a SuperDISC and conicals. I can think of only 1 that has done exceptionally well with sabots and that was Jason in New Mexico at a regional event.

Considering the 300 yard event and sabot only requirement. You have to wonder why when very few true production rifles will compete well under those conditions. The rules certainly favor 1 brand in particular and its made in Michigan. I cant imagine why they would exclude full bore lead conicals for any other reason but to remove 45cals from the competition.

The Ultimate is dying fast. Its a publicity thing i assure you. It wouldnt surprise me if they are sponsoring the association to do this. Everything is political anymore like it or not.

As far as sabots go, the best shooter wont win using sabots. There are two many inconsistencies and variables with sabots that you cant control.

The 300 yard shooting with sabots is obviously a way to enhance the ultimate ML. I think most people are way to smart to buy into that. But, dont count out the Mountaineer against all those manufactures. Its a great bench ML.

obviously things are deleted in this thread. Were can i get a copy of the new rules??

I'll just say that's flat out wrong! Who are you trying to convince? Any quality shooter will get moa at 300yds with a shrink wrapped rifle, and a great shooter will get less. I've personally witnessed, and records prove it, that shooters are knocking down steel pigs with CVA Optima rifles, and the original Remington 700ml rifles, at 300 meters using Swiss 2f and sabots.
The real issue is that most don't know how to shoot at that range, nor have most ever tried. No one is teaching new shooters the capabilities modern inline rifles actually have, or how to shoot them accurately. Instead, they're being told what they should or shouldn't do, what bullet and sabot shoots best from someone else's rifle, and how to install a vent liner. Or some well meaning shooter tells them that most all game shots are at 100yds or less, so there's no need to practice/shoot at longer ranges, and install an "O" ring......
Then when something does come up, where shooters could enter or just go watch and learn, someone has to come along and criticize a new first time event, that after the event is completed, changes will be made. Reminds me of the liberals that need a "special room", with pillows and blankets to go cry. Hillary supporters.
How about coming up with something positive to share?

I'll take on all dem $1500+ muzzleloaders with this $135 Mosin! WAUGH!

They really have no reason to either. sharpening your skills to become a better hunter is a smarter way. With the exceptions of plains game and those people who dont have a choice.

With technology today, its fairly simple to shoot long range. Ballistic reticle scopes, rangefinder, binos etc. The bottom line is a good steady rest. No secret about that at all.

First, every shooter isn't necessarily a hunter. I know a number of them.

I can't count the numbers of hunters using muzzleloaders, that were totally scared to death, to take a shot beyond 40yds. Even with their modern inline. They had the thought, or it was instilled into them, that muzzleloaders were only close range rifles. Modern inlines are not just 40 or 100yd rifles.
Second, not everyone who hunts with a muzzleloader or any firearm for that matter, has the ability to "hunt". The terrain you hunt can be completely different than what they can hunt. Eastern/southern hunters may have more woods and brush, where short shots are the norm. Mid west hunters may have a single hedge row to hide in, over looking an 80 acre bean field. Western hunters may have vast areas, miles of wide open, hills, or mountains. Shots at game vary by geographical area. So lumping all muzzleloader hunters into a "no reason" to shoot long range is far from correct.

I do though like your last paragraph. Its spot on. That is exactly why any shrink wrapped rifle is capable of 300yds or 300m accurately. Shooters just have to learn from someone how to properly utilize the rifles they already have. Its no secret, it just has to be learned.

But I'm saying ballistic reticles really make all the long range hunting a lot easier. If your talking competive paper shooting that's different. But I'm not sure anyone that posts on this board does that. Showing up at one shoot a year, doesn't classify a competive shooter to me at all. But that's my opinion only. It's like the Deer hunter that hunt the first day of buck and no more.

Right here.
http://www.michrpa.org/resources/Doc...zzleloader.pdf

RIFLES- Any safe production in-line muzzleloader. Weight of scope and rifle not to exceed 12 lbs.

BULLETs /SABOTS- Any lead or jacketed bullet enclosed in a sabot. A sabot must be used. No bore riding bullets
.
SIGHTS-Any iron sight or scope.

PROPELLANT-Black powder or any black powder substitute. NO SMOKELESS POWDER.

PRIMER-#11 cap, musket cap, 209 primer or primed ctg. case ignition.

FIRING POSITION- Prone using any easily portable front rest such as sandbags, x-sticks, bi-pod etc. Rear shoulder support only. No artificial rest under the rifle butt.

COURSE OF FIRE-In-line M/L class. 300, 200 and 100 yards prone. A fouling shot may be fired into the berm
once your 30 minute relay starts. Up to three sighting shots may then be fired, then 5 shots for score. 30 minute
relays at each distance. We use 3 man squads. The targets fired at are the NRA SR-3 300 yard target, SR 200 yd.
target and the NMLRA 6 bull target at 100 yds.

DUE TO SPACE LIMITATIONS, THE 2017 MATCH WILL BE LIMITED TO THE FIRST 12 PEOPLE
WHO PRE-REGISTER

But, we're not talking hunting and haven't been. We're actually talking accurate paper shooting. One doesn't have to be a competitive shooter to be able to shoot extremely accurate.

So you're still right. With the equipment available to shooters today, even shrink wrap rifle owners, long range shooting isn't a secret.

I'm just glad when anyone is willing to put effort and time into hosting any ML match.
Good luck if you are able to attend and shoot.

The first thing I noticed is there's no powder limit?? Wasn't last year limited to a certain load?? Or did that get changed to?

Its a local (state) event and as far as i know its not a NMLRA event. I dont see any reference to the NMLRA at all actually on their website. http://www.michrpa.org/

Crazy!!! Im not sure why BarnesAddict didnt title the thread new ML shoot, or a name something to relate to what hes talking about. Not sure why things are deleted and nothing really references what hes talking about. I just assumed its the NMLRA. Perfect reason why you should never assume. I really thought the NMLRA was changing more rules. But obviously not the case. GM54 cleared this all up for me in his last few posts.

If this is a new ML shoot, i think the rules are fine. If you dont like the rules dont shoot in it. Pretty simple in my eyes. Like i said before, i thought this was the NMLRA changing more rules like before.

I think rule number 1 said all production ML'S aloud. That rule needs to be a little more specific in my eyes. I dont consider Cooper, NULA, Ultimate, Knight 500 production ML'S. To me all of those are basicaly custom rifles and should not be included in the shoot under production rifles. A custom rifle division is were they belong. I also think Friendship should be the same way. Here again, just my opinion.

Grouse, I'd like you to know that a separate organization started and created the shoot. It has nothing to do with the NMLRA.

I'd also like you know, and you can easily verify, I had NOTHING in any way or part in creating it or it's rules. Also, UF Inc. had NOTHING, in any way or part creating it, or it's rules, nor does it sponsor it. I'm not really sure if UF Inc. even knows this shoot exists.

Someone shot the messenger, again. All I can say is that it is pathetic when an organization wants to start something for the very first time, and others have to tear it apart. THAT, is the main reason more people aren't willing to learn.

I'm pretty sure of this though, people on the internet and their feelings about what is, or is not a custom built muzzleloader, DO NOT run the shoot, nor do they involve themselves in any shoots. They DO NOT get to decide an organizations rules, no matter how much they whine and cry about it. It would be like someone inviting you to dinner, then you tear them apart for serving pork instead of chicken. Its their house, their rules. You can have chicken when they come to YOUR house.

There is always some kind of conflict in any shooting sport. However those who have a passion for shooting and learning, abide by the rules of others or, they make a case for themselves for a change. If they can't get changed what they'd like to change, they still shoot anyway.

What EVERYONE should be doing is to support ANY person, place, or thing that wants to gather shooters together. Nothing starts out perfect for anyone starting something new, and things always end up changing for future events. Its something learned. No reason to tear something apart just because it doesn't fit someone's criteria.

Here's something I think we should all be able to agree on, and that's that some Organization, rather it be the NMLRA or the NRA, needs to come up with a defined definition of what is a Custom rifle and what is a Production rifle. It'll be argued over the internet like liberals on FB, Twitter, or any of the other social media sites, including sporting forums. Its going to take an organization like the NMLRA or NRA to make new rules concerning modern inline rifles.

My take and only my opinion..........

Please leave marketing out.......

Custom rifles IMO are rifles that are built to the purchaser/owner's individual specifications. The can include any number of different actions, different barrel manufacturers, barrel lengths, numerous stock configurations and trigger types. If a person removes a .50cal barrel from an action and installs a .45cal barrel, its customized. They are basically a "one of a kind" type build. Manufacturers of these rifles may or may not have a manufacturers FFL.

As far as production rifles, I think there's actually two different kinds.

First IMO, mass produced rifles. Mass produced rifles include but are not limited to, CVA, T/C, Traditions, Knight etc. Yes they have different models, but they are still mass produced. The manufacturers of these rifles HAVE a manufacturing FFL.

Second, there are limited production rifles. Limited production rifles are rifles that are built on a single action, use a single barrel manufacturer, have a set barrel length, a standard trigger and limited stock choice (per model). These manufacturers also have a manufacturing FFL. Examples of these rifles could be NULA, Ultimate, Knight 500 and Cooper, etc.

Now please understand... I'm not saying anything I posted concerning custom or production rifles is right or wrong. Its only my opinion. Again, some organization needs to make the rules, then everyone can understand the rules and abides by them.

Like i said the rules need tweaked in my opinion. I had Bestil take a Knight barrel off a Knight Elite and add a brux barrel. To me thats not a production ML now.

As far as a group of guys getting together and having a contest/shoot is awesome. But threads like this dont help at all. Im not sure who deleted what, but actually it should of all been deleted. Theres no reference at all were the shoot is or whos running it. None of that was clear until GM54 started posting information after i asked for some. And theres a big difference between a bunch of guys getting together and having fun and shooting, versus a competition in which you take seriously yourself.

Debating over what is custom is subjective at best. IMO it would be much simpler to either go by the rules or don't participate. If your not a competetive shooter what's it too you? Just my .02 cents.

I can't believe so many long paragraphs were written addressing this "issue". You guys must either be bored or have an overactive confrontation gene.

Not subjective at all.

Look at it like this. Hankins takes a Rem 700 action and adds a Brux barrel, your choice of stock, beds it and a HIS LRMP ignition system.

Certainly that is a custom build.

UF does the exact same thing with a different brand of barrel and a little different LRMP ignition system.

Both rifles are made when you order them. Just like a NULA or even a Knight 500.

If this is a custom


So is this.

I was thinking the exact same thing but was biting my tongue. Seemed to me like someone wanted to open up a can of worms just to see what came out of it.

Well you're not providing all the information. A Hankins' rifle can be ordered with any number of barrels from different manufacturers, not just Brux.

With the UF, you get one choice of barrel from one manufacturer, rather you want it coated (BW) or not, its from one manufacturer and only one, all the same barrels setting in a shipping container. You DO NOT get a bedded rifle from UF, regardless rather it is one of either of the TWO models now offered. If any part malfunctions or breaks on a UF rifle, it can be repaired/replaced the same day, including the breech plug, without prolonged fitting and the barrel. All parts are readily available and nothing must be ordered.

Hankins may, I don't know, have an inventory of parts on hand, to which if someone rings a barrel, he can screw a new barrel on it, screw a breech plug into it and send you out the door?
Each and every rifle Hankins builds is different than others he produces. He also installs the (any) trigger of the purchaser's choice, along with many other options. Hankins build TO THE PURCHASER'S REQUEST (to a limit). Each rifle is a "one of a kind".

With UF if you order a BP Xpress, that rifle, short of two different stocks if still available, is identical to the rifles he built 3 years ago, or the rifles he builds in the future. If you purchase a BP Xpress today, it'll be exact to the one I have owned for three years, unless the stock is ordered.
UF builds the same rifle for anyone who orders. Yes he builds them once they are ordered. He's a 78 year young builder, who doesn't over stock his shelves with complete rifles.

So you're comparing a builder who builds "One of a Kind" rifles, to a builder who builds the same rifle for anyone who orders.

There are differences.........

Actually Hankins has a base SML using a Boyds stock. Pillar bedding is pretty much mandatory with that stock. Stocks like McMillain it isn't required since they come with ether bedding blocks or pillars already.

He stocks barrels and actions as far as i know. How many really isn't relevant in defining custom vs production. He appears to have settled on Brux for the most part now and uses Rem700 actions for his standard rifle.

Does UF still stock Howa 1500 actions and the barrels for them?

NULA has used a Douglas barrel for as long as im aware. They have used the same action for the model 20 aka M209 since day 1.

So by your definition its a production rifle if bought in the standard configuration. You would need to include the Gunwerks rifle too with that broad of a definition.

Only available in 50cal and the options are very limited. Fluting, stock pattern, finish and scopes

Calling this $7000 ML a production rifle is without a doubt a sever stretch of the term.

$7000 :D :D :D some have more money than brains. Just makes me shake my head.

IMO...... you should be able to shoot your NULA, using BP or BPS in any match as a limited production rifle. I'd stand by the Gunwerks standard rifle, only if it is shot with BP or BPS, as a limited production rifle. The rifle Hankins builds as his standard, no options, using BP or BPS is a limited production build. As well as the Ultimate BP Xpress. I'll also throw the Knight 500 in using BP or BPS, as a limited produced rifle.

Also, I'm inclined to believe.... each one of those manufacturers has an FFL Manufacturer's license, each carrying a TON of liability insurance. Each one of these mentioned manufacturers provide an owners manual, which indicates maximum charges. IMO and I agree, these standard rifles from said manufacturers are limited production rifles, with none of these manufacturers flooding the market like mass produced rifles.

When you take an Omega, rework the action and put a barrel other than standard on it, its custom. When you take used or new parts, assemble them as a "one of a kind" rifle, its custom. If you take a standard .50cal rifle and change the barrel to a .45cal, its custom.

However, IMO when you take a Rem700ml and just upgrade to the nose/bolt kit, it does not make it a custom rifle. Nor does changing the trigger spring or hinge pin in an Encore platform rifle, nor does the simple exchange of a trigger system.

Not saying I'm right or wrong.

I would like to see a ML shoot with a stock ML. No special triggers or anything. And limit optics to a 3x9x40 scope. Safe clean and simple!!

This is right off the Ultimate website. Like I said, it's in the custom group of ML'S. Just like the owner clearly states below.

Orders and info, call 517-349-2976

Please place your order well in advance of when you need it. We do not stock pre-made muzzleloaders. Each is custom made to order and requires Ken's individual time & attention. Thank you!

A match setup where everyone used the same rifles would be cool. In this case all Rem Ultimates or even UF Ultimates or Coopers.

No projectile restrictions but all powder load data must be supported in the manual. In other words if BH209 isn't listed or limited to 120gr you can not use it or use more.

It would be interesting to see how many chose to use conicals over sabots and how well they compared.

I believe the term limited production is the closest we will both get to agreeing and i could accept that as a reasonable description.

Thank you.

Look very closely again at each word written above and don't read anything into it. What's happening is you're seeing only the word custom. It jumps up and grabs your attention, so you identify it only as custom.
What that statement says is that he builds them one at a time.
He uses the same identical parts for every single BP Xpress build, reaching into a container of identical parts for each rifle, and each rifle is identical rather you order it or I order it. IMO and as you see above, Gm54-120 also accepts it as a "Limited Production Rifle". Its a standard rifle that no matter who orders one, they are identical rifles, made from the identical parts. What you're identifying with, is MARKETING.

Marketing is a big deal and the way things are worded doing so catches people's attention, quickly. Good marketing earns a lot of money for businesses. We see it every day with many different things on TV. "Ask your doctor about .....", "Flex steel" "Bigger and better" and the list goes on an on. Marketing is the second largest cost, non-value added I might add, in the auto industry. Auto manufacturers spend hundreds of millions each year just on marketing alone.

I can't believe there is actually a debate on whether or not the bp express is a custom muzzleloader or not. Marketing or not, it is being touted as the worlds best custom muzzleloader. Why would you call it a custom muzzleloader repeatedly (look at the website, its all over) if it is not a custom muzzleloader? Is it because he wants to look like a liar? I think not. It's probably because He believes it's a custom muzzleloader, go figure.

We can use word play on the words "custom" and "production" but i think it is common sense that the bp express is not a production muzzleloader in the usual sense of the word. It is a production muzzleloader in the sense that is was produced...thats as far as it goes. Just because they are all built the same doesnt mean squat. The gun is made of a hodge podge of parts and is made per order. Using another gun factory's action, an aftermarket barrel, and your own breechplug system, and then throwing it all together on an order by order basis certainly is a custom.

So then a CVA frame that has a Bergara barrel installed is also a custom? A CVA that comes with a standard breech plug and a BH209 breech plug is installed is a custom? An Encore platform rifle that uses the same frame but an XT breech plug is a custom? An Encore or CVA that will easily swap barrels to a CF (two guns in one) is a custom? An identical rifle, regardless who purchases it, even if its built by a single person the identical way and identical parts each time, is always a custom built rifle because its not produced on an assembly line? If any rifle is built by multiple people, then its the only way it can be considered a production rifle?

I can assure you, my last Pro Hunter that as I was told I'd regret selling, and do, would outshoot for accuracy any Ultimate made, including my own. However, because I changed the hinge pin and trigger spring, by most people's definition it would have been considered a custom. That would also mean that any Rem700ml that had the 209 conversion added, would also then be a custom. It also means that any White rifle is a custom built rifle.

Only three years ago the Ultimate rifle was barely, if ever, mentioned in forums or on sites. If an owner of the rifle never posted, it wouldn't even be considered or talked about. 99% of the owners of these rifles aren't accurate shooters with them and never will be. They bought them because of the marketing.

Grouse mentions its old tech and outdated, as have others. It is a rifle designed to shoot the dreaded pellet, an outdated propellant with high SD's, but convenient for new shooters. It only comes in .50cal, where everyone wants a fast twist .45cal today. It is not, and you will be told expressly by UF, it IS NOT BH209 compatible and you will be told not to shoot BH209 from the rifle and BH209 is not listed as an approved propellant in the rifle's manual.

I'm wondering, how many people would get involved in any kind of match or even a friendly back yard competition, where a case of beer was the prize, and want to use pellets and a 300gr SST, when everyone else was shooting weighed charges of BH209 and Parker BE or MH bullets?

If you look back at the old Manufactures Match at Friendship you will see why this concerns me. Both White and Knight used rifles that were very limited production to set some of the best scores.

Knight had the DE Target model which is now known as the Knight 500 and they cleaned house with it for several years.

In the final year or two White used the Varminters. A sub 40cal rifle that wouldn't even be legal in many states for deer hunting. White broke all previous records with that rifle.

After White set a new score standard nobody wanted to return to that match and it ended shortly afterwards. In the interest of encouraging the "average" Joe i think its only prudent to question what is allowed and what isn't in a "production" or 'limited production" event.

Be careful what you wish for. You might get a good turnout at first but when people realize they have to shoot against a $2000 rifle or beyond and sponsored shooters, many wont be so keen on participating again.

I actually knew that your response would be to deflect away from the bp express and on to something else. Why does Ken advertise that he is selling custom muzzleloaders? Its not marketing or else CVA (like you mentioned) would advertise they are selling custom muzzleloaders because it sounds better. CVA doesnt because they dont sell custom muzzleloaders. Ken does, well.... because he sells custom muzzleloaders, as hard as that is to believe. CVA and TC also doesnt build rifles on a per order basis either.

The word production in the usual sense of the word in how we use it is, yes, mass produced guns that you can pick at your typical sporting good store, internet vendor, etc. But, your definition of production actually opens the door to a lot of guns yet i bet if they showed up you guys would be throwing fits about them being there (Friendship anyone?). I dont see why Hankins and Luke from ASG cant get in this. They use remington and savage actions, their own breechplug system, and aftermarket barrels amd sometimes they actually have guns already built ready to go (at least Luke). Yet again, one of them guns show up and there will be an uproar.