Building a new smokeless ML
 

Well, the boredom has thoroughly set in and I have been overruled on buying a swinglock. The boss (wife) has put the foot down (dang near on my throat no less) and said absolutely not. But in her all powerful goodness she has told me if I could come in under 2K I could build what I want. SO, here are my options. I have 2 Savage 110 long action rifles and 2 Savage 10 short actions that I really don't shoot all that much and one of the 10's the barrel is pretty much blown out anyway. Thinking seriously about one of those Hankins barrels for one of those Savage actions. I am assuming that and a stock will be all I would need with those Hankins modules being sized like a case. Just need to get the proper modules to fit my current bolt I imagine? Anyone have any experience with these rigs? Thoughts? I will be going .45cal with 1:18 twist. And I will have him cut the barrel to 28" and send off the cut part to Swinglock to have a full sizing die made. Guess I will have to search around some to find a good stock with a rod holder in it. Any other things I should think about or research?

Smooth sizing works fine but keep your barrel drop anyway. I would go 1-20 Brux...his standard Savage Prefit. You wont gain anything from the 1-18 unless you want to shoot long 350gr+ and most people dont.

BTW make sure you have a 4.40 spacing and large shank barrel. You will have WAY less stock options in the 4.27 spacing. A Savage large shank is still smaller than a Rem700 at the shank and if you have any desire to shoot the upper end loads its a safer way to go

This is going to be a multi duty/game size rifle GM. So I want the option to be able to load up a serious Moose bullet. Hence the 1:18 twist. Either making my own on the lathe or finding some super high BC bullets in .450+range with a 400gr weight range for downrange energy at 300 yards. The problem isn't finding bullets with high BC, it's the terminal performance of most of them really suck wind. Those with the best terminal performance, usually have seriously crappy BC and couldn't buck a slight breeze at range. Those with a good BC either blow up on a shoulder or just pencil through and never open. It's a rare thing that I ever have to fire on Moose past 200 yards in the places I hunt, but I'm getting old as dirt and I just can't get in on some places silently like I used to. So I am going to have to equalize my limitations with a bit longer range capability.

The 10 with the mostly blown out barrel is 4.40" screw spaced and yeah I knew the large shank part. I plan on some seriously beefy loads sometimes so I want a really good strong setup.

Any ideas on a stock for this? I could most likely drill a rod holder and figure out how to install a spring loaded "keeper" but I'd rather not have to fool with all that.

Load data for that will be very hard to come by. Getting someone to trace that load wont be easy either. You will be "guestimating" with QuickLoad.

A Barnes 290gr TEZ at over 2600fps will kill anything in NA and most other continents too. Pittman offers some aluminum tipped cup and core bullets upto 375gr and rated at .401 BC IIRC. He sells them in a standard and hard core. The 350gr and under are fine in the 1-20.



The new Aeromax will be out soon with a higher BC rating.

I have a very good Stainless steel Knight Disc I would sale you at a good price. You could have Bestil put a 45 Brux barrel on it with a Smokeless breech plug for no more then $1000.00 bucks total.

lol I can make them a hell of a lot cheaper than 2.15 a bullet! (I'm assuming those are Parker match/hunter). Don't forget, ole pappy is retired now and not bringing in 7 figures! Gotta tighten the old belt up a bit or, as the wife says, "yer big ass is cut off!!" Dang obummercare and back to back knee surgeries put a pretty large dent in my "fun" money for a couple years dangit! I figure a medium length bearing surface and a fairly low angled cut down to the tip in a pure solid copper (basically like the one on the right in the pic) may have enough act right in it out to 300 yards. Would probably pencil at anything longer.

I like the idea behind using the modules Tom. Those things would make my world a ton easier with my big ole fumbling fingers. Not to mention being a LOT cleaner. And after doing just a LITTLE research, with me supplying the receiver, I can come in under 1K for the barrel, plug, bushing, modules, and stock (maybe a touch over with the stock. Haven't picked on one yet) and lord knows I have more large rifle mag primers than I will use in a lifetime probably. Who knows, may end up with an even better rifle than a swinglock!!

Im not positive, GM54 might know the answer. But I Bestil can make the breech plug to use large rifle primers like you want. Just a suggestion that's all

That is a Pittman Accumax bullet. Its a little cheaper than the Parker but if you want to play you got to pay. Moose hunts are not cheap and it only takes 1 bullet to get the job done.

$190.00 Per 100 Count

$ 95.00 Per 50 Count

$ 47.50 Per 25 Count


There are tons of cheaper bullets you can shoot for recreation.

I would make another suggestion, get a nutless Savage barrel. It will end up with a similar OD as a Rem700 which is around 1.2"+. Barrels like that are shooting a 275gr bullet slightly over 3000fps with just H4198. I think a 300gr is moving around 2800fps. All the load work has already been done for you. No guess work, no questimates with QuickLoad. I can show you were to look at countless SML traces but pretty much all of them are 325gr and under.

Do the math, its a monster load. Easily capable of 500 yard accuracy and knockdown.

Honestly GM, I just want something that will be extremely accurate with enough speed/power available out to 300 to properly break through a big Bull Moose shoulder and make nice jelly out of the heart and lungs or snap a spine on a high shoulder shot. I'm 100% confident in my loads with my TC out to 200 on whitetail or elk and 150 on a Big Bull Moose but I'd really like to double my effective range. 1 of the 3 areas I hunt in AK are ML/SGSlug only which is the whole purpose of this build. Well not the WHOLE purpose, another reason is...I just want one dangit!!

As far as the nutless barrel suggestion, the whole point of using a Savage was the ease of headspacing without having to lathe the barrel or indexing. If I were to go that route, I'd just use one of the several 700 receivers I have laying around. If I still have the damn things. Knowing my kids I aint to sure! Sticky fingered little B's :D OHHHH,,, I still have 2 K98 actions waiting to be brought to life!!! And 2 Timney featherweight triggers to go withum!!! Okay dangit,,,Now my head is hurting!!! Got me thinkin to dang much!!

300 yrds? Ok, lets see your off hand group at 300 :D

Dang SH that is a adventurous endeavor you're going after. Seems to me to be just too much trouble for a front stuffer and then use smokeless powder. IMO it's not much different that a single shot CF. I'm thinking myself of getting one of the single shot Henrys coming out in May in .45-70 and using BP in it. That should be an easy one to clean up after a day of shooting BP.
But to each their own and if you go through with it I wish you the best.

Im likely going with a barrel nut design for the same reason. I just need to decide if i want to sell a couple rifles, one of them i really like too. Even a small shank barrel can handle some really stiff loads but the room for error is virtually nill.

The new Kash 750-ML action is based on the Rem700 but it takes Savage large shank barrels. There is just way more "stuff" available for the Rem700. It will be a pricey build but i should be able to get around $2200-2300 for the 2 rifles. One i hardly ever shoot except for fun.

Right now im at
Kash Action...about $715
TriggerTech Trigger...around $130
Brux 458 1-20...around $465

Still need to decide if i want a $200+ LRMP setup or a sub $100 209 setup and a stock. My biggest problem is weight. I dont want to end up with another 11lb+ rifle. I already have one of those. Ive seen the barrel i would like but its setup as a RemAge and its $800 with the LRMP plug/25 modules.

If you already have a Rem700 action shell out the $800 and dont look back. This barrel should be quite a bit lighter. At 28" its only .750 but the shank is 6" long instead of the usual 4-5". Comes complete with nut. plug and 25 modules. All you need is a lug for it. Northland sells RemAge lugs if you want it pinned.

I use sticks nowadays ya little pup! :D

Sissy.


..........

Least I aint quittin :D

I prefer retired.

I shot an email off to Hankins and gave him my options of receivers on hand and what he thinks would be my best option overall would be for my needs.

Clem, the main reason for this rig is for me to be able to double my effective range with a muzzleloader. As I said earlier, one of the places I Moose hunt in AK is shotgun slug/muzzleloader/bow only. I just can't physically get into some of the places around that area quietly enough to get up on a good bull. Knees are just too shot up. Even the replaced one just doesn't have the stamina for grueling stalks. Being silent has always been a hard task for my big ole frame. Bad knees coupled with old age just makes that task beyond my abilities anymore. So, ya gotta do what ya gotta do! Spot it, drop it, go get it...Takes some of the fun out for sure as I have always enjoyed getting up on the bigguns but, in all honesty, I like eating them a bit more :D

The Rem700 is a better action overall although the Savage 16 Ultra Light would be cool. You simply have way more options using a Rem action and the Rem short action is a tad smaller than a Savage short action too.

The only other thing i can think of is you will need a single shot block off plate unless you already have a single shot action. Those are pretty common and pretty cheap too.

I think I could get by with just using a SS follower rather than a whole block off install. $10 vs. $100+ there. I THINK a buddy has a single shot 700 receiver that he was going to build a bench gun off of but the wife put the brakes on his build. Could probably trade him out of it reasonably. Lets wait and see what Hankins has to say about what I have and what he thinks will be best suited for what I want. I'm really liking the K98 thought simply because I don't think many, if any, have done it. I have so many rifles built off K98's it's kinda funny and it's an action I am highly familiar with so getting the "feel" of the rifle will be easy.

IIRC the very early work by Henry and Bill Ball were Mauser actions. This was long before Savage came into the picture. They were mini Mark X.

He emailed me back. Said that single shot short action 700 would be my best option with the RemAge barrel. As far as pinning the lug, since this will be a dedicated ML I really don't see the advantage to pinning one since I won't be spinning the barrel off and on with replacements. I am assuming (I know, stupid to assume) that if I go that route, it will be pretty much the same as spinning a barrel on to a Savage correct? Just set it with a GO gauge and torque to 40 and give myself around .003 leway?

There is no "go gauge" for this application. Jeff can fill you in on the details but from my understanding its simple. IIRC you need to remove the ejector from the bolt too.

LOL...Yeah I kinda already figured the ejector removal. Them modules are a little to pricey to be throwing a mile out never to be found in the grass again :D Now to try to track down a decent stock with the ram rod hole already in place for the field rod. I don't like those collapsible rods one bit. You need a quick reload and you are 100% scwued. I'm hoping Boyds has this one with the rod hole and retainer already in place.

Boyds offers 700ML stocks but im not sure if they offer them already cut for the ram rod. The new Rem Ultimate ML stock is already cut and they pop up for sale occasionally.

I think Brownwells and Numrich still sell the 700ML ram rod retainer spring hardware. The ferrule from a new Rem Ult. ML might fit your new barrel too. Another thing with Boyds is they have no bedding pillars and its a wise investment.

Boyds emailed back saying that stock is pre drilled but it was a very short message and didn't include info on the retainer. I don't think rigging up a retainer spring would be anything difficult would it? Probably a little dremmel work inletting.

I got ahold of my buddy with the 700 single shot short action. Bolt face is .470 for .308 case head size and he will trade me straight up for my long action 700 and one of my K98's. Never even had a barrel spun onto it so that's not as bad a deal as it sounds. Though I am still cringing a little!

Now to have a little longer and more detailed chat with Boyds and a couple other places to see about a stock without magazine inlet with this being a single shot. No need spending money for bottom metal needlessly. I'll epoxy bed the action and float the barrel. That should be plenty. If not I can always install pillars. It's not really hard to do.

Welp, all should be here in the next week or so. Went with the 700 single shot shorty and the RemAge barrel setup. That stock I pictured from Boyds earlier is indeed drilled and rigging up a retainer for it will be a breeze according to a buddy of mine. He did tell me to leave my dremel in the damn case and use my chisels. He said "no one will see it but you and I've seen your work with both...use the damn chisels"...Guess he means my dremel work sucks huh? :D Going to make my own rod guide to put on the barrel once I get everything spun on and dialed in. Just don't know yet which way I will go with it. Wrap around or solder it on. Probably wrap around with some sort of epoxy that I can heat off if I need to. Did go ahead and go with 1:20 twist. I figure a well placed 300-350gr bullet with a MV of 2800fps will do the job I am looking for well enough out to 300 yards. I think I will go with a Nikon Monarch 3, 2.5-10x42 or I MIGHT go with a new Leupy if I can talk myself into it :D

I hope you have better luck than I have with either of them.

1-20 is fine. A 1-18 probably is too but the 1-20 has been proven over and over again its a good twist for this application.

A 300gr at 2800fps is pretty close to max without going to one of the slower powders. Most use H4198 and it works well. You might be able to get a little more speed with something like 3031. Pushing a 350gr that fast though will require some very cautious load work.

SML traces for bullets over 325gr are pretty much non existent.

After looking over the barrel OD specs and some traces i would stick to around 2500-2600fps MV with upto a 325gr bullet. That load is still completely adequate with good bullet selection.

If you go faster you will be into the 50+Kpsi range and/or having to use huge amounts of much slower powders. Even 3031 requires way more powder than 4198 to get the same speed......and i mean WAY more, like over 90gr of it.

That RemAge barrel is nice but its still not quite 1.1" OD. That is why i suggested a plain Rem barrel that would be around 1.2" OD for highend loads.

I'll mess around with some loads. May even go down to 250gr with a good solid bullet design. Not afraid to put the wammy on a Bull at 300 with 220gr RN from my .30-06 so I shouldn't be afraid of a 250 from this rig if I can stay in the 2700-2800 range of MV. My shoulder will probably not like the bench work though :(

Barnes, I've never had a problem with a Monarch (I have 14 of them on various rifles) but Nikon is changing here of late and I'm beginning to not trust them like I used to as far as the warranty which is why the thoughts of Leupold.

I busted up 2 different Monarchs, twice, on my Pro Hunter.

I'm currently dealing with Leupold and a complete refund on my VX6, which has blown out for the second time. They're refunding my purchase price, including sales taxes. They offered to replace it with a VX6-HD, but with production, they couldn't get me one until sometime in April. I chose the refund.

They're just not holding up on our rifles, as another just received his repaired VX6 back last week. Same issue.. complete erector system.

I'm replacing it with a Nightforce. Tired of blowing up scopes.

With the scope (average scope weight being around 14-16 oz) I am assuming this rifle will come in around 9.5-10.5 pounds all said and done. So recoil may not be that significant until I get into my big boy charges. Still, I would like a scope with around 4 inches relief for when I do get into those big boy charges. Wife is getting tired of stitching me up though she is pretty dang good at it :D And no not all her stitch work comes from scope eye! As I stated earlier, my max range for this rig on game will be 300 so I don't need tons of magnification, 10x will be more than sufficient on a Moose. Wont be using this thing for ground squirrels :D I just want one that will have superb low light clarity as probably 90% of the Moose I have taken over the years has been in low light situations. Heavy cover at daybreak or dusk usually.

I see over on Optics Planet they are really pushing the Vx-3i models. Anyone try those out?

super_hunt54

You might also want to look at the new CEB 40-240gr (sabot version) and keep an eye out for the new Lehigh. The new CEB for sabots does not have a stellar BC but its way better than the Barnes 195gr or 200gr SST.

I know its a step backwards but you should be able to break 2600fps EASILY with a 240gr 40cal in a sabot....That load should be what?.......Similar to a 338 WinMag but with a .287ish BC

Ohhhh that's purdy!!! And also VERY similar to the plan I had in my head for turning them myself (except I was going for .452-458 full bore, whatever this barrel size slugs out to be)

Sabot loads have much less peak pressure. I can hit about 2800fps and stay under 35kpsi with a 200gr bullet. I mean thats simple to do. Sabots hate heat though so you have to take plenty of time for the barrel to cool down.

Only a handful of guys have posted results with the 240gr sabot version. A shooter for Knight even won a match with that bullet. Results look very promising and that why ive sorta been on Lehigh to produce a similar bullet.

It should be nothing to get that bullet to 2700fps+ with commonly used powders at very safe pressures. Longer semi light contour barrels like that RemAge would be ideal for it.

Reading this post makes me think about all the knowledge gone from my life now. He had imparted quite a bit to us but after reading many of his posts I have come to realize just how much he still had left to teach his kids.

GM54-120, I think I have all the parts here he had ordered and the receiver he had gotten from Mr. Phillips. I believe I can put all this together but I may need some instruction on installing the rod retainer. I haven't really been into muzzleloading in lines, especially high end equipment such as this rifle he was building, but I do believe this rifle was going to be one of his best projects and I'd really like to build it. Would it be to presumptive to ask you for help if I need it?

I would be glad to help with what i can but im not "builder". The guy to talk to is Bestill. Not only is he great with custom work he is also a Champ on the shooting range.

Bestill is very familiar with the ends and outs of this type of build.

Forgive my ignorance but who is Bestill? The only competitions I ever got in to was long range factory match rifle so I am sort of a new guy on the block when it comes to these muzzleloaders. I have 3 side lock percussion rifles that the old man built 1 of many years ago and the other 2 are factory Thompson Center Arms. And now I guess his old Hawken Thompson Center Arms unless Alex or Deb wants it.

Well thats strange, i thought he had a account here. Just checked i guess he doesnt.

Its Jeff Fisk of Bestill Creations. He has won and built several rifles that have won at the inline match at Friendship Indiana.

He is active on the Modern Muzzleloader Forum. Rules here prevent me from posting a link to that forum though. I think its ok to post his Facebook page though.

https://www.facebook.com/Bestill-Cre...3021805207339/