Shockey's Gold Super Powder on the range
 

Alright, first off, this is the first time I've had time to sit down and practice and learn the powder with patched round ball. I've never shot the JSG SP for accuracy until today. I've shot a lot of the APP brand but this was new to me. I previously sighted in my CVA Accura V2 with it, but that was with conicals, not patched round balls.

Today I started off at 50 yards just until I settle in and learn more about it. I cleaned the bore free of oil and loaded up 80gr JSG SP, .015" patch lubed with my patch lube and a home cast .570" round ball.

I did swab between shots with a SLIGHTLY damp patch. This stuff is actually cleaner than their other powders it seems. I had one no fire due to having to much solution but it fired perfectly once I removed the nipple and dribbled a little powder into the drum.

No hard loading on the ball, just pushed down on the end of the range rod while ramming the ball home and that was it. No hard seating pressure this time.

First shot was high on a freshly clean bore, shots 2 and 3 were perfect.


I was very happy with that and so I grabbed some 90gr charges and loaded up. The far left shot I called. I felt myself shaking with the cold evening and so I kind of blew that one. One thing I did notice. The 90gr charge was blowing the thin .015" patch in half. I feel that once I start to experiment with the .018" and .020" patches, things will go a lot better with the heavier charges.


I'm going to reload my stuff tonight and get it ready for tomorrow. I want to experiment with no swabbing and see how that does and then I'll move onto seating the ball heavy on the charge. Down the road, I'll play with my thicker patches as well and do it all over again.

I am not shooting for tiny little holes, but more for reasonable hunting accuracy until I learn things about this powder.

It does go off instantly though. I shot some through my 1860 Army .44cal revolver and the #10 cap had no problems setting it off, plus the cylinder is super clean as well. I plan on doing a lot of shooting with the revolver and shotgun this fall/winter.

I have shot round ball out of rifles and my revolver. I like JSG 3f. In the rifles I noticed after several shots, I had to swab the first ... say five inches of the bore from the muzzle down because of a gray build up. But I had excellent accuracy and easy clean up.

My revolver with 20 grains of JSG 3f really shoots well.

I remember doing that as well with the original stuff. I haven't shot this enough to say it doesn't do that, but if I can get out and shoot enough tomorrow, we'll see what it looks like.

Straighten me out here Devil. It seems you were shooting loose powder. I know American Pioneer makes "Super Sticks". Is there a Super Powder also?

There's both super sticks and super powder. Super Powder is loose granules and what I am using.

This be the stuff right here?

Holy crap, can't use over a 250 grain bullet? Wow that leaves me out of the running with 85% of my loads!

I used a 278gr round ball and a 338gr platinum the other week. I had zero problems and not sure why they label it like that. And yes, that is the stuff I am trying out. My local store went belly up so there went my normal goex supply LOL. I just want something easy to get and keeps me running clean. I can normally get it to shoot very well so hopefully this will work out in the long run.

It probably has a fast pressure spike so they don't want people using a heavier bullet for fear of a breach. More than likely kind of like the fear of using higher pressure loads in older firearms such as a .45/70. Modern higher quality steels in the barrels of today probably wouldn't suffer.

Now that's interesting. I haven't seen that on the shelves in my area. Cabala's doesn't show it on their web site. Nor do Midway, Bass Pro, Natchez, Bud's, etc.

I did find it on the American Pioneer web site. The funny thing is, the label says "Never use over a 250 grain bullet", yet they have a testimonial on their web page of a kid shooting 295 grain Powerbelts over a 100 grain load. http://americanpioneerpowder.com/Jim...owderForm.html

They also show some pretty impressive velocities on that web page. If they are true it's got to be a way different powder than the original JSG. The one jug of JSG I tried was clean and gave me reasonable groups, but velocities were way below any other powder.

hmmmm I wonder who actually makes the stuff? Considering American Pioneer Powder INC. is registered as a shipping and freight company and not a manufacturing company.

Can't seem to find the manufacturer of this product for some reason.

The APP corporate address is:

American Pioneer Powder, Inc.
20423 State Road 7 #F6-268, Boca Raton, Florida 33498
Toll Free 888.756.7693

The APP manufacturing facility is located at:

1475 Blair Road, Whitewater, Colorado 81527

Regardless of who manufactures it , one fact remains , it's the right powder to use for shooting powerbelts out of Spanish guns . Somehow those three just seem to belong together .
Some may remember this thread
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/342190-new-app-super-powder.html

It is an APP powder and it sucks moisture something terrible.. It is kinda like small gravel of all different sizes.

My experience w/this powder was that it was accurate out of an early model "24 barrel CVA and a TC Omega w/245 and 295 PB h point bullets. It loaded fairly easy but took quite a bit of swabbing to clean the bore. Can't attest to stated velocity or variation. The powder was temperature sensitive-not a big deal when used in season. The powder does seem quite course and needs attention for consistent volume loading.

Man that's some big grains! I've seen finer course cat litter.

thats actually fine vs the old APP powder. It flows into my hawkens drum without trouble though.

Getting ready here to head out to my range and do a little more testing. I brought 3 .020" patches with me to try out as well.

Contrary to popular myth the APP powders do not "suck moisture". They simply clump. Shake the can and the clumps break up.

A gentleman on another site knows more about blackpowder and the substitutes than anyone else alive. He has extensively tested the APP powders. His tests show APP powders to be no more hygroscopic than blackpowder or the other BP substitutes.

I've actually had t7 clump up more than any other sub and I live in a fairly "dry" area. In all the years of bp shooting, ive shot only 2lbs of t7 due to the accuracy issues ive had with it. The t7 pellets were the worse of the bunch.

Haven't shot anything yet. Had to back fill a trench cut for water/power to the new shop, so this took some time out of my day. That's ok, nice and cool during the evening!

It actually produces moisture when fired according to APP's own website And it is very hydroscopic . So first they suck moisture . Then they produce moisture. So regardless of the only living expert and his tests , my results have proven to me that its the worst powder produced , You can have it all . I will stick with blackhorn and 777

Right and its your calling to prove how the worst guns , worst bullets and worst powder is the best . whatever .

preacherman, settle down and take your arguments somewhere else.

Well according to Cortera that is the the transport facility and there is NO manufacturing facility named in the incorporated side of the business. That means they don't make the stuff they just market and sell it. Heres the full stats on American Pioneer Powder INC.

Take your phony biased reports over to your own site would be better

Keep it clean.

This is an all new powder for me that im just learning about. No opinions on it as of yet. If its not accurate, i don't mind saying so.

Ok then i give you the benefit of the doubt and will wait and see what your testing finds out

If that is the case why does the company pack moisture wicking packets in the powder?

Because of past expeiances with APP powder I was or tried to be very careful keeping the container sealed tight - still got clumping as you can see even with the packets in place.

I do not ever remember any of my cans of GOEX having this problem or even having the moisture pack in them.

I would agree with that - in my testing it was apparent that it or something was creating moisture in the barrel.

Ive had pyrodex that had some small clumps before. Just shook the can and it was fixed.

Goex or real black powder in general beats the snot out of the subs period.
I've stored APP years ago in my powder horns with zero issues on clumping so its just one of those deals where if it happens, it happens.

Heck, I did a test years ago and found that on a cabelas hawken, when bringing the rifle in and out of hot/cold/cold/hot house, the sweat was actually seeping into the nipple threads and soaked the powder, causing it to "melt" and turn into a solid form. It still shot perfect some days later.

Follow this link to 12 pages of testing of the powder back in 2011 when I first tested it. If anybody might be interested. There are better powders out there.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/blac...er-powder.html

My experience with APP 3F was it's powder attracting moisture while loaded in the barrel. Had to shoot the ML twice a day as a safeguard.

I recall the large clumps in the jug. If I remember correctly, those clumps were not velocity-recoverable. If you were to separate enough of the clumped powder to register the 100 grains you were normally shooting,. you wouldn't even hit target paper at 50 yards.

The APP website says their production facility is located in CO:

http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/contact.html

Alright, 80gr JSP SP and the .020" patch this time around. Just 50 yards for testing.

It looks like swabbing VS no swabbing did not change the accuracy much at all. At the end and not pictured, I took 3 shots with 100gr and the first shot actually made me slobber as the kick was pretty darn stiff.

Cayugad, Im also waiting for the rifle to set up and see if theres any of that white fouling the first 5" or so of the muzzle. I remember getting it mostly with conicals and not so much patched balls.

Right now its decent accuracy for open sights and shorter distance shots probably out to 75 yards.

Lots to change in the mix but I feel like running it through the Chrony first.

Yep, according to the Triple Seven and BH 209 advocates none of the APP powders are any good. Every time someone says something good about a gun, bullet or powder some others just have to chime in and say the product is no good.

After firing at least fifteen pounds each of JSG, Goex Pinnacle (2F and 3F) and Black MZ, i like them all. My three longest muzzleloader shots on deer and hogs were made using JSG. Longest shot was a hog at a measured 226 yards.

i don't care what your test "results" were or whether or not you like the APP powders. i like the stuff. Sorry you could not make it work. You use whatever you want to use and i'll do the same.

This forum has gotten very hateful in the past several years, too many people get butt hurt too easily. i don't come here much anymore.

These folks tested Black MZ powder. No mention of clumping or moisture.

http://www.namlhunt.com/mlpowders2.html

You are correct and Toby got paid for every good word he said.

And you are correct on another item - you should very well use what you have confidence in - that is the right thing to do. And in my case I have never been able to get APP powder to perform as well as T7 either using caps or 209 ignition.

Do not get me wrong either - I am not saying it is a bad powder it just does not give me the performance that I want. I believe GOEX is certainly a better performing powder and I think Swiss out performs any other true BP. Oh one last thought - I really do think I might use APP versus any of the Pyro's.

You cant get something to perform no matter what you do, if the performance isnt there to begin with . and with APP performance definitely is lacking along with consistency and reliability

I am not sure how you can get consistency and reliability with the APP powder granuales the size they are. Plus the non-uniformity of the powder granuales that you might find in each load. I am not sure how each load could be uniform from load to load even if you weighed it. The finer granuales are going to burn faster than the larger ones. And i see no way to get a uniform load from load to load. The good thing is that with BP or BP's subs other than BH a load can easily vary 5-7 grains and the normal hunter shooter will not see the difference. And the difference for the sake of hunting might be minimal unless shooting at the longer ranges.

I had really good results back in the day with the chunky APP and their pellets. Its a learning process indeed but that's with everything in life. My 58 shoots RS and Select well, but not as good as Olde Eynsford.

I am kind of curious about the deviation in velocity from shot to shot for consistency. Both of my .58's perform very well with my current loadings of Schutzen 3F as well as Pyrodex RS. I like using real BP but it's a hassle trying to find it locally and the hazmat fee makes it more expensive. I would use the JSG if I can get consistent performance at a lower price and that's the bottom line for me.

The folks who run APP have not been helpful at all. For years APP told shooters to seat the bullet/sabot hard on the powder.

IME: All the APP powders require compression to work well. If you do not heavily compress the powder the sd will rise and accuracy will go to pot. For best accuracy it is necessary to seat a tight fitting ball or sabot very hard on the powder. Place a drilled golf ball or furniture knob on the ramrod and compress the powder. i also whang the bullet once with the heavy ramrod.

An old ballistician and myself used his very sophisticated and expensive equipment to test JSG, Pinnacle and Black MZ powder. One session with Black MZ powder gave an sd pf 17 fps. Highest sd was about 40 fps.


The lawyer/s at APP grew concerned that someone would get hurt while loading. They tolds folks to not compress the powder. Then they "warn" folks not to use bullets over 250 grains when firing their JSG Super Powder; go figure.

The folks at Alliant Powder tell shooters to heavily compress Black MZ powder.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/product...r/blackmz.aspx

i'm not concerned with the larger granules of the APP powders. JSG, Pinnacle and Black MZ work very well in conventional muzzleloaders that are properly maintained and loaded. After the powder is poured lean the gun with the lock side down and give the stock a whack or two with the hand. That will allow powder to enter the flame channel or bolster.

All the APP powders are ascorbic acid based: So was Black Mag 3. Ascorbic acid based powders will deteriorate over time. i had a few cans of Goex Pinnacle go bad. The stuff fired every time but the puissance was not there.