super_hunt54

John, first off could you kill the caps please? Second, I didn't include smooth bore ML or ML pistols in this since less than 2% of hunters use them.

bronko22000

PA lawful for big game is any manually operated rifle, shotgun or handgun using an all lead bullet or ball designed to expand on impact.
Any muzzleloader 44 caliber or larger and any handgun 50 caliber or larger. (Page 22 of hunting digest)

Oldtimr

Grouse, you asked a question regarding the requirement to use expending bullets in muzzle loading seasons in PA. This is the law regarding that, it is the law for big game season regardless of the firearm.

2322. Prohibited devices and methods.

(a) General rule.--Except as otherwise provided in this title or commission regulation, no person shall hunt, kill or take or attempt, aid, abet, assist or conspire to hunt, kill or take any big game, except wild turkey, with any of the following devices or methods:

(1) Any device other than a centerfire or muzzle-loading firearm or bow and arrow.

(2) Any automatic or semiautomatic firearm, except that any semiautomatic firearm modified to permit one shell in the chamber and no more than four shells in a magazine may be used by a person who suffered an amputation or lost the total use of one or both hands.

(3) Any firearm propelling more than one projectile per discharge.

(4) Any projectile which is not all lead or which is not designed to expand on contact.
(5) When any big game is swimming.

(6) By any other method or device which is not specifically authorized or permitted by this title or commission regulation.

I hope this answers your question.

super_hunt54

Oldtimr, the sentences highlighted in red and in bold seem to kind of go together. Wouldn't the first one "Except as otherwise provided in this title or commission regulation" kind of go along with "any single projectile" as being an "exception"? Not trying to be argumentative just wishing clarification on that subject since I am getting heavily back into ML'ers and will most likely do my next whitetail hunt in Pa during ML season (the anterless one where modern ML'ers are allowed) and after some extensive testing of the .458 305 grain Lehigh XP have found it to be an excellent bullet. Like Grouse I would love to use an XP bullet for both whitetail as well as elk.

After a little thinking, I am also wondering about the new CF bullets from Lehigh as far as legality as well. They aren't considered "expandable" either. The are a partial frangible with a solid base.

bronko22000

That does seem to be a conflict of regulations in regard to a projectile in the general regs and the ML requirement. I just posed that question to the PGC via email.

Oldtimr

That part in red is there because at one time only patched round balls were legal to use in the flintlock season, then they allowed maxi balls(conicals) and finally saboted conicals. As far as the any single projectile, it still has to be made to expand on contact because the law says so , what you posted are regulations. What I posted is law. Regulations do not supercede law so you have to read it as, any single projectice so long as it is made to expand on contact. In addition, the 44 caliber or larger still applies as well for the muzzleloader firearm.

bronko22000

I'm in total agreement with you Oldtimr but because of the way it is written it could be construed as a conflict of the regs. I realize ignorance of the law is no excuse and I don't see any sensible hunter going out with a FMJ saboted bullet for big game. But there are those that aren't sensible and just might do something that stupid.

Oldtimr

No, there is no conflict with the regs and the law, you must always remember, the regulations are an adjunct to the law bit can never over ride the law, there is no conflict, you must read the regs the way I explained, any projectile configuration that is mentioned in the regulations, so long as they are made to expand on contact, the only entity that has the authority or over ride the law id the legislature in the form of an amendment to the law, the board of commissioners has no authority to do so. It isn't that complicated really as long as you keep in mind what the law says. You may not use any projectile for big game, except for turkey that is not made to expand on contact, if a projectile is not made to expand on contact, it is not legal for deer, bear or elk in any firearm in any season The problem is, most people don't know the difference between law and regulation and how they work together. Regulations (title 58) are authorized by the law and carry the force of law however they do not over ride the law,( title 34). Most people read the regulations because that is mostly what is in the digest but forget about the law that authorizes and restricts what regulations may do.. Maybe this will make it easier to understand, the regulations do not have to say that the projectiles must be made to expand on contact because the law already has established that requirement. You cannot shoot a patched steel ball bearing or a FMJ conical or any other non expanding projectile I don't know any other way to explain it. The law and the regulations work in concert, not independently.

bronko22000

No need to argue this I am agreeing with you Oldtimr. I said it could be construed as a conflict. I never said there was one. There are some people out there that would disagree with us and the law.

super_hunt54

Yes but it DOES say "or COMMISSION REGULATION" therefor negating it in muzzleloading context. That would be the confusion. In the wording of the law it is giving overriding authority (in this instance) to the regulatory commission. While ignorance of the law is no excuse, poor wording of the law in conjunction with the regulatory commission would be bordering entrapment really. A hunter shouldn't have to have a law degree to figure out what should be simplistic and well worded, easy to understand rules.

These are the bad boys that are currently being used in my .458 SOCOM and are performing better than most any other bullet I have used so far on hogs. They are leaving devastating internal damage in fairly large hogs. Had one of my hunting partners use my SOCOM with these loaded up. He has taken a few lung shots just for testing and reported "gooy mess" internally with very little meat damage.


Whether or not I use the .50 cal or a new .45 cal will dictate which XP I want to hunt with next year. This thing is one mean bullet. The flutes cut into the nose of the bullet create a hydraulic force inside the fluid environment of the animal that decimates lung and heart tissue. Unlike FMJ's that are designed to just punch through, these things leave a trail of destruction internally.