About those CVA muzzleloaders
 

I bought my first MZ around 2002 or '03. The model was a CVA Musket Mag. supposedly capable of a 150 gr. by volume charge. I didn't pay much for it and the barrel steel looked somewhat questionable. Having only an 24 in. barrel, I was never tempted to go beyond an 100 gr. BV charge. I friend had purchased a similar rifle. We later heard that some of these guns were suffering serious failure. CVA stated that guns with a certain serial # were the ones affected. Tonight, while doing a little research, I came upon this:

http://randywakeman.com/DangerousMuz...rsAHistory.htm .

Just....WOW... Never owned a CVA. Was really close to getting a Bergara barrel just a week or two ago but due to some recent medical expenses chose to hold off a bit. Dang glad I did now!!! Bergara barrels are supposed to be some top notch high quality barrels! I guess that project is off the table now! Back to either a GM barrel or my original thought of getting a white!

This company really has the hype down. At one point there was talk about Bergara barrels being better than Green Mtn. Figured it was nonsense. Know that GM barrels are an industry standard w/a well earned reputation.
After reading the linked article, I was reminded of Muley and his Optima. Sent him a PM.

On a side note. At the very end of the linked article posted by GS authored by R. Wakeman is a copyright blurb. Permission to post that link has been granted Mr. Wakeman.
I asked as well as Mr. Stalker.

JW
Moderator.

For your side note and peace of mind JW

Link to media law page for the rest of it http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/link...hted-materials

Here we go again with Randy's bull.

This is old news. I understand this is some more new stuff that has happened. But EVERYONE knows by now that CVA sells nothing but cheap/unsafe foreign made muzzleloaders. Buy and shoot at your own risk is all they need to say on the label.

Thanks Randy for your unbiased opinion.

Tom, his name is Tom.

For what it is worth I own and shoot 3 CVA's like each one of them. Will I sell them? No.

But it did open my eyes and I did go look at the date of manufacture of what I own.

And I will be watching very very closely for the 'Brand Bashing' so BE Warned! :D

JW

I know his name, but he sounds like Randy.

If you have concerns about CVA guns. Read this, and if you haven't guessed after reading it. The Private investigator is Randy Wakeman.


http://www.cva.com/the-truth-about-c...zleloaders.php

I have read the Wakeman report. Very interesting stuff. Old stuff mind you. But interesting. So pardon me if I don't read it again.

As for the new CVA rifles. I own an Optima. I shoot the Optima and found it accurate, easy to clean, easy to take apart, and a real pleasure to shoot. So the question is, do I fear for my safety shooting it. If I did, I wouldn't shoot it. If you do, don't shoot it. Its that simple.

I would love to own one of those new CVA Accura V2's in 45-cal and a used, good condition CVA Mountain Rifle in 54-cal.

Where is 1874's avatar when we need it? :D

Your last statement pretty well sums it up, for any weapon. Some of the linked information is as current as last year. My guess is that the newer models are probably better. The question still remains: Are the guns still safe w/a max charge. Not just short term.

That Dudley seems like a smoke and mirrors kind of guy, based on his rebuttals.If the evidence against CVA were fraudulent, they would demand a court case for improperly targeting their company and causing loss of revenue. If they aren't doing so, what is CVA afraid of? While I no longer own a CVA product, putting information out there so owners and buyers can make informed choices is what needs to be considered.

P.S.- I hope the guy that stole it didn't load it up w/a 150 gr. charge and receive delayed justice.

Anybody loading to 150gr isn't looking for accuracy.

You want smoke and mirrors. Listen to Randy. He gets paid to produce them.

Don't be naive enough to believe that CVA is the only gun company to settle out of court. You hear about CVA from Randy. Do you read about it anywhere else? If you do they got the info from Randy.

You're just part of the witch hunt.

Do you take issue w/owners and customers having knowledge and the right to choose, either way?
Again, if Randy is the investigator, surely CVA could target him for some type of trade violation, if the statements weren't true. Consider that.

Oh please! Should CVA lose potential customers from exaggerated lies?

This is normal. Every once in a while someone brings this up again. It doesn't affect those who know what's going on. Of course the Knight bigots will jump on it again. They're just upset CVA out sells every other company.

As do Powerbelts. :p

The biggest problem is no quality control. If they inspected all products as a good quality control inspection dept. would they would not get sued so often.
I have a Bergara barrel for one of my Encores I had it magnafluxed and I measure myself and checked hardness I did this type of inspection for 30 years. The steel used is not up to the strength of my TC barrels but is sufficient for 120 grains of BH if you go higher than that you better get a TC or a Knight or you do not have any safety factor and that's is with their premium barrel.

BH says that 120gr is a max magnum charge. I don't see a problem?

That wasn't a very mature answer from a grown man. Go ahead Pete, brush it off. Tell everyone here how you actually KNOW these are lies. Everyone buys a magnum capable MZ to shoot standard loads. Of course. CVA's may last awhile w/reduced loads but the guy that eats a barrel we must have no sympathy for.(Sarcasm off)

Since when has a mature post been a requirement in threads like this?

You all think CVA is the only company that has law suits. Wrong!


Thompson / Center Arms Found at Fault in Catastrophic Gun Failure


On September 1, 2005, I was severely injured by a catastrophic gun failure. My face was permanently disfigured and sight in my right eye was lost forever. I was shooting with the Thompson/Center Encore Rifle. It blew apart because of a defect in its design. That horrendous day propelled me down a path I never planned on or wanted in my life. I’m not speaking out for personal gain or to be vindictive toward Smith & Wesson or Thompson/Center Arms (Thompson/Center Arms has apparently been sold to Smith & Wesson). I merely want the truth about this rifle to be known. I don’t want anyone to go through the pain and suffering I’ve endured. In my opinion, this rifle defect is something that was known about and has been covered up for years.

After almost 10 years of battling over the Encore, I received the final judgment order from the 46th Circuit Court for the County of Otsego, Michigan. I sued Thompson Center Arms (TCA), and the jury found TCA at fault. The jury found TCA to have a defect in its design and found their manual to be defective.

Throughout this entire process, from the day that my rifle had failed, until being given the green light to speak freely about this rifle, I have felt as though I’m involved in a David and Goliath scenario. In the end, no matter how much money they threw at this problem, with their team of lawyers and paid experts, the truth could not be veiled from the jury. At many points over the nearly 10 years since my injury, I have experienced hopelessness about the outcome of the case. One of these moments occurred during the trial. My attorney had in his possession letters, obtained from Thompson/Center through discovery, from other individuals who had incurred similar injuries from the same type of failure. Although the letters were discussed in open court, they were not allowed to be shown to the jury as evidence, based on a technicality concerning Thompson / Center’s claims as to when they had actually received the letters in relation to the date of my injury. A representative of the company did admit that he saw failures of this kind during testing. He also admitted that TCA destroys customer complaints every six months.

Because of the pending suit, I have not been able to share these details until recently. I cannot adequately express what a tremendous relief it is to be able to finally share the truth about the dangers of this rifle.

Most gun owners I know - including myself - thought suing a gun company was practically blasphemy. My suit was never about anything more than seeking truth. I believe wholeheartedly in the Constitution and stand for our Second Amendment rights. I love freedom. I was an NRA member when my injury occurred and I’m an NRA member now.

This is the first lawsuit brought against TCA regarding this rifle that has been successfully litigated. In my opinion, TCA is fighting me so hard because the Encore Rifle has been wildly popular. A recall would cost potentially a lot of money. Still, I am now finally allowed to spread the truth about this gun. Please notify anyone you know who owns this rifle that it could catastrophically fail!

The judgment is attached. I have blacked out the award amounts because the money is not important in this regard. No amount of money can compensate me for the loss of my sight and the years spent in recovery. Additionally, I truly believe this company will continue to fight this judgment, and as a result I will never see any monetary compensation. The court documents are now a matter of public record, and if you wish to seek out more details they can be obtained.

Thank you for your time, and if you would like any additional information please let me know.

Sincerely,

Brian Ward

You can do much better than that, can't you? Where is the track record of lawsuits against TCA? I just did a quick google search and didn't find anything. I know, maybe I should go back and search harder. No need. Unlike what Randy posted, TC simply has a higher reputation. Any gun can fail, but you're ignoring a company with a proven history of damage . That's the difference.

Whenever this topic comes up the first thing that comes to mind is...

How popular is the product in its country of origin. Is it easily purchased there. Is the product only made for export to countries with different or more relaxed regulations.

We had a member join another forum. He was from Spain and looking at Traditions. We asked him to look for a CVA/Dikar/Bergara made MLs. He linked a website for a large distributor in Spain.

Oddly there were none listed. Only Traditions and Pedersoli. Last i heard he is still looking for a place that sells the Dikar inlines. Even the ML barrel for the APEX is not listed on Bergara's website.

It is very strange that Traditions is so easily found for sale yet Dikar inlines seem to be non existent according to this member in Spain.

Did you miss this?

"He also admitted that TCA destroys customer complaints every six months."


You want to see more? Hire Randy to find them.

Maybe because CVA is in the US.

And Bergara (the company) is in Spain. They make the CVA MLs correct? Dikar owns both brands correct? Their ML are all made in Spain correct?

Maybe you can find one on this website, They list the Apex in centerfire under Bergara.
http://www.armeriatrelles.com/website/

Traditions aka Ardesa is also made in Spain. They are also in the USA but they sell MLs in Spain too. Rather perplexing isnt it?

Nice try Muley.................

That case with Brian Ward, wasn't even a muzzleloader case, it was a centerfire rifle. It also appears that "someone" may have actually used handloaded ammunition.

From Brian Ward's expert witness:

"Once it was shown through testimony the locking assembly on the rifle was not proper for the cartridge and could cause the gun to unlock itself and eject the case, then reclose when it fell, AND the cheap plastic stock was likely to break from recoil from normal use, the further facts of sloppy headspacing and the tested stretching of the headspace dimension in as few as five rounds just showed more exacerbating circumstances due to faulty designs in more than one place. The jury saw the gun was defective in design and materials and awarded the majority of the verdict to the plaintiffs. They retained part of the award because the handload was an unknown that the company contended could have been causation. (Common in civil courts in states where 'proportional liability' is the law.)"

Brian Ward: ...... "that should be brought in because TC knows how shooters are. (Don't we all.) Just because the TC-E "will hold" a .300 Mag does not mean it will still hold one with excess resizing lube left on it, or an oversized flashhole, or a weld-crimped bullet or a round grabbed off the dashboard with hot and degraded powder. (don't ask me how I know THAT one!)"

Hmmmm,,, No links or anything showing what the cat. failure actually was? In the CVA report there were all kinds of actual proof and documentation. I have several TC barrels and not a single one of them, including the muzzleloader, has ever shown the slightest hint of poor craftsmanship or quality. Now granted all of them are pre S&W takeover but it seems so is this complaint.

After a little research I found out some things about that little thing you just put up there Pete. He joined up on SEVERAL sites posting this thing you put up. He neglected to put up the link which actually had DETAILS. Those details were that the Stock broke and the scope hit him in the eye!!! Here is a picture of the offending rifle.




Could anyone please show me a cat. failure that has a dang thing to do with "headspace" as Brian tried to say that was the reason? ANyone that is a real shooter knows that with TC's you may have to shim a little here and there to get proper headspace. It's the nature of the beast. There is absolutely NO way you can have interchangeable barrels with different cartridges and calibers and have dead on headspacing! They get it as close as possible from a manufacturing standpoint and SAFETY.

Pete, you also failed to put in that Brian was found to be 40% liable as well!

Yes, I did miss that. Big difference between complaint and personal injury lawsuit. I'll confirm. Did you miss the part where I mentioned reputation? TC, has a good one. No need to look further. The evidence is clear. You just can't admit it. Randy obviously haunts you.

Super, if TC has major problems, it wouldn't be hidden. The sporting arms public would see to it word got out. Just like the negatives in the other case.

Yep, it's pretty dang hard to hide those things in an AMERICAN BASED company. Far to many restrictions and safety guidelines as well as Lawyers to get away with it here. Pete, CVA is by far NOT American Based. It hasn't been since they went bankrupt and BPI bought them out. In actuality, CVA never was truly American since all their ML'ers were made in Italy. They were basically an Import dealer.

Bergara just makes the barrels. I'm not sure where the guns are assembled. Maybe in Spain too. Maybe they just target the US for the VA guns. We have 4 million ML hunters here. Plus, those who buy them to just plink. That's a pretty big market. Do they ML hunt in Spain? I don't really know. if they don't sell the guns in Spain, I don't think it's because they can't.

Super, this thread was posted merely to give information for those that might find it beneficial. 2 people shared that they were thankful for the info. I believe you were one of them. I really don't care what people use so long as they have knowledge of potential safety issues. It may be old news to some, but I suspect a great # of shooters might not be aware. If anyone took offense where none was intended: Too Bad!

That still puts TC as 60% at fault. There were other cases with similar problems of headspace. TC themselves admitted the gun having problems. Where I found that post the docs were shown in PDF.
All i'm saying is these things go on all the time, but you don't hear about them unless someone like Randy starts to post them.

Is there anybody on here that personally knows of a CVA blowing up? There's a lot of reasons a gun can blow up. It's rare that the gun is at fault. When it is the guns fault the company does something about it. Just like CVA recalled all the guns that had the problem. How many recalls do car manufactures have. Some that are dangerous. Remember Remingtons trigger problem? People were killed if I remember right. Does that make all Remington guns junk?

You guys are just rat packing an easy target brought on by a shifty investigator.

It goes much deeper than that. You listen to Randy likes it's the gospel. He's paid to slander CVA. He loves it when someone like you comes along, and posts it up again. Money in his pocket.

I was in the waiting room at St. Francis hospital in Cranbery pa talking to a guy about his friend who was getting attention from being a victim of a CVA muzzleloader. I'm almost positive I put a thread up about it many years ago. Either on huntamerica or modern muzzleloader. I wonder what ever happened to that poor guy??

Wake up and see reality, Pete. Randy is no one special to me. You've drank the Dudley Kool-Aid obviously. You were given a chance to prove that information was wrong. You couldn't do it. Instead, you post 1 ridiculous lawsuit claim that Super exposed as questionable in facts. It's not just Randy, either, as you already know. Face it: You're wrong and you have nothing but a pointless argument. You really should try to be more useful.