New Information For Using Sabots In Rifle Season In Colorado
06-05-2015, 12:12 PM
#1
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,557
New Information For Using Sabots In Rifle Season In Colorado
Ok, I had said I was going to contact the DOW about the Lehigh XP bullets I see if they're legal to use in Colorado during rifle seasons. It turned up something that surprised me.
First let me say the bullet is legal to use in rifle season, but not for elk, and i'll explain that next. The question about the XP is because it doesn't expand. CF bullets in rifle season have to expand to be legal. However, since you'd be using a muzzleloader during rifle season that law doesn't apply. There is no expansion law in the muzzleloader season.
Here's the bad part. There is also a law that says for deer size animals the caliber has to be 40-45 cal. (or bigger) During muzzy season. It also says the caliber has to be a minimum of .50 cal for elk/moose. It also has bullet weight restrictions, but we're just talking about bullet size now. Bullets also need to be full bore size in muzzy season. So, no sabots are allowed.
Ok, so moving on to using a muzzy during rifle season. Some of the restrictions are lifted when you use a muzzy in rifle season. Like using a full bore bullet, scope, and pellets. You can use a scope, pellets, and sabots if you want to. What isn't lifted is the bullet caliber(diameter). Which means you can use a saboted bullet in a 50 cal muzzy for deer size game, because the bullet size restriction is 40-45 cal. However, and this is the part I didn't know. The bullet restriction of .50 cal for elk/moose still applies. You can't use a 50 cal saboted bullet for elk in rifle season. You'd have to use a bigger bore gun so the bullet was still at least .500 in diameter. A .54, or maybe even the .52 would work.
Anyway, here's the email. I talked to John a friend I have who's a hunt planner. He in turn asked Bob Thompson the man in charge of the law in enforcement.
To [email protected] Today at 1:34 PM
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Show Images Change this setting
Good afternoon Pete,
Below is the response to your e-mail. It is pretty much like we discussed, but this from our Law Enforcement staff.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Thompson - DNR, Bob <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: Lehigh XP bullets
To: "Roybal - DNR, John" <[email protected]>
Cc: Bob Fisher - DNR <[email protected]>, James Baker - DNR <[email protected]>
John,
The requirements as spelled out in regulation for muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets are that the minimum caliber for big game except for elk and moose is .40. The minimum caliber for elk and moose is .50. All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets from .40 through .50 caliber must use a bullet of at least 170 grains in weight. The bullets for larger than .50 caliber must be at least 210 grains in weight.
The bullet expanding requirement only applies to rifles using center-fire cartridges and not muzzle-loading rifles. The sabot prohibition is only during the muzzle-loading firearm seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear and moose. Please note that this bullet would not be legal for elk or moose hunting during the rifle and other associated methods seasons as it does not meet the caliber requirements (.458 v. .50).
Thanks!
Bob Thompson
Lead Wildlife Investigator
Colorado Parks and Wildlife
6060 Broadway, Denver, CO 80216
(303) 291-7342
[email protected]
On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 8:47 AM, Roybal - DNR, John <[email protected]> wrote:
God morning Bob,
Below is an e-mail that was sent us for an official response. The individual that submitted it (Peter Gaimari) is looking to forward this information to other muzzle-loader hunters via social media, blog, etc. Apparently a hunter was told by one of our field staff that the bullet in question is NOT legal during Rifle season, because it does not expand. (Peter Gaimari's number is xxxxxxxxx, CID xxxxxxxx).
We appreciate your assistance with this question.
Thank you,
John Roybal
303-866-3203 ext. 4658
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pete Gaimari <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, May 28, 2015 at 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Lehigh XP bullets
To: "Roybal - DNR, John" <[email protected]>
Hi John,
The question is, would a bullet that doesn't expand, but still has a large wound channel be legal to use in a muzzleloader during rifle seasons? It's a saboted bullet which i've been told is legal to use in a muzzleloader in rifle seasons. I know it's not legal in the muzzleloader season. Here's a link to the bullet i'm talking about.
.458 260gr Xtreme Penetrator Muzzleloader Bullet
Thank you
Pete
image
.458 260gr Xtreme Penetrator Muzzleloader Bullet
Caliber: 0.458 Bullet Weight (gr): 260 Length (in): 0.925 BC (G1): Minimum Twist Rate: 1:30 Velocity (fps): 750-4000 Box Qty: 25 Patent Pending NOTE: MUZZL...
View on www.lehighdefense.com
Preview by Yahoo
--
John Roybal
Hunt Planner
Communication Center
Main (303) 297-1192 I Fax (303) 291-7103
1313 Sherman St. Denver CO, 80203
[email protected] I www.cpw.state.co.us
First let me say the bullet is legal to use in rifle season, but not for elk, and i'll explain that next. The question about the XP is because it doesn't expand. CF bullets in rifle season have to expand to be legal. However, since you'd be using a muzzleloader during rifle season that law doesn't apply. There is no expansion law in the muzzleloader season.
Here's the bad part. There is also a law that says for deer size animals the caliber has to be 40-45 cal. (or bigger) During muzzy season. It also says the caliber has to be a minimum of .50 cal for elk/moose. It also has bullet weight restrictions, but we're just talking about bullet size now. Bullets also need to be full bore size in muzzy season. So, no sabots are allowed.
Ok, so moving on to using a muzzy during rifle season. Some of the restrictions are lifted when you use a muzzy in rifle season. Like using a full bore bullet, scope, and pellets. You can use a scope, pellets, and sabots if you want to. What isn't lifted is the bullet caliber(diameter). Which means you can use a saboted bullet in a 50 cal muzzy for deer size game, because the bullet size restriction is 40-45 cal. However, and this is the part I didn't know. The bullet restriction of .50 cal for elk/moose still applies. You can't use a 50 cal saboted bullet for elk in rifle season. You'd have to use a bigger bore gun so the bullet was still at least .500 in diameter. A .54, or maybe even the .52 would work.
Anyway, here's the email. I talked to John a friend I have who's a hunt planner. He in turn asked Bob Thompson the man in charge of the law in enforcement.
To [email protected] Today at 1:34 PM
This message contains blocked images.
Show Images Change this setting
Good afternoon Pete,
Below is the response to your e-mail. It is pretty much like we discussed, but this from our Law Enforcement staff.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Thompson - DNR, Bob <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: Lehigh XP bullets
To: "Roybal - DNR, John" <[email protected]>
Cc: Bob Fisher - DNR <[email protected]>, James Baker - DNR <[email protected]>
John,
The requirements as spelled out in regulation for muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets are that the minimum caliber for big game except for elk and moose is .40. The minimum caliber for elk and moose is .50. All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets from .40 through .50 caliber must use a bullet of at least 170 grains in weight. The bullets for larger than .50 caliber must be at least 210 grains in weight.
The bullet expanding requirement only applies to rifles using center-fire cartridges and not muzzle-loading rifles. The sabot prohibition is only during the muzzle-loading firearm seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear and moose. Please note that this bullet would not be legal for elk or moose hunting during the rifle and other associated methods seasons as it does not meet the caliber requirements (.458 v. .50).
Thanks!
Bob Thompson
Lead Wildlife Investigator
Colorado Parks and Wildlife
6060 Broadway, Denver, CO 80216
(303) 291-7342
[email protected]
On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 8:47 AM, Roybal - DNR, John <[email protected]> wrote:
God morning Bob,
Below is an e-mail that was sent us for an official response. The individual that submitted it (Peter Gaimari) is looking to forward this information to other muzzle-loader hunters via social media, blog, etc. Apparently a hunter was told by one of our field staff that the bullet in question is NOT legal during Rifle season, because it does not expand. (Peter Gaimari's number is xxxxxxxxx, CID xxxxxxxx).
We appreciate your assistance with this question.
Thank you,
John Roybal
303-866-3203 ext. 4658
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pete Gaimari <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, May 28, 2015 at 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Lehigh XP bullets
To: "Roybal - DNR, John" <[email protected]>
Hi John,
The question is, would a bullet that doesn't expand, but still has a large wound channel be legal to use in a muzzleloader during rifle seasons? It's a saboted bullet which i've been told is legal to use in a muzzleloader in rifle seasons. I know it's not legal in the muzzleloader season. Here's a link to the bullet i'm talking about.
.458 260gr Xtreme Penetrator Muzzleloader Bullet
Thank you
Pete
image
.458 260gr Xtreme Penetrator Muzzleloader Bullet
Caliber: 0.458 Bullet Weight (gr): 260 Length (in): 0.925 BC (G1): Minimum Twist Rate: 1:30 Velocity (fps): 750-4000 Box Qty: 25 Patent Pending NOTE: MUZZL...
View on www.lehighdefense.com
Preview by Yahoo
--
John Roybal
Hunt Planner
Communication Center
Main (303) 297-1192 I Fax (303) 291-7103
1313 Sherman St. Denver CO, 80203
[email protected] I www.cpw.state.co.us
Last edited by Muley Hunter; 06-05-2015 at 12:33 PM.
06-05-2015, 12:47 PM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,557
Let me add that this might change. When I explained that a 300gr .45 cal bullet is actually more efficient, and retains more energy because of a better BC over a .50 cal bullet. He agreed.
He said they would talk it over, but it might take awhile before it's changed.
He said they would talk it over, but it might take awhile before it's changed.
06-05-2015, 02:33 PM
#5
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Posts: n/a
06-05-2015, 04:13 PM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,557
I already have a special license to use a scope in muzzy season. I've never used it, but I hunt the rifle seasons anyway, and everybody can use one then.
Bore size bullets are no problem. The question is what saboted bullet is at least .500?
I'm surprised this hasn't caught the eye of Grouse. I'm pretty sure he uses a 50 cal sabot for elk during rifle season.
Bore size bullets are no problem. The question is what saboted bullet is at least .500?
I'm surprised this hasn't caught the eye of Grouse. I'm pretty sure he uses a 50 cal sabot for elk during rifle season.
06-05-2015, 06:21 PM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
06-05-2015, 06:34 PM
#9
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,557
Oh...
I don't know about a Holo sight? Colorado is kind of picky about what they allow during ML season. They outlawed the SeeAll sight, and it has no magnification for the target.
Always best to call them and ask.
303 297-1192
Cripes! I call them too much. I know the number by heart now, and I can't even remember my own number.
I don't know about a Holo sight? Colorado is kind of picky about what they allow during ML season. They outlawed the SeeAll sight, and it has no magnification for the target.
Always best to call them and ask.
303 297-1192
Cripes! I call them too much. I know the number by heart now, and I can't even remember my own number.
06-05-2015, 07:15 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
LOL Join the club, I always have to do a phone information lookup on mine to get my number. Never call it and rarely give it out to anyone. Thanks for the number. I'll give them a call Monday. Been thinking about a "traditional" hunt for a few years now anyway other than Bow. Getting back into ML'ing these past couple years has kind of wet my whistle so to speak.