blackhorn powder and sub zero temps
 

My brothers gun is a traditions pursuit and mine is a cva accura and I do have the black horn plug. His gun has only fired 2 times on primer only. We kicked up some does this afternoon. He takes a shot but primer only goes off. So he takes a shot with my gun and it goes off like normal. After looking for blood its a complete miss. Temp was negative 2. So we reload my cva and head to our evening spot. I let him use my gun and I sit in stand with bow. Temp is negative 6. He has some deer get in range and takes the shot. Says it fizzles and burns powder. But bullet just go a few feet. So what caused this ?

I don't know if anyone can tell you what went wrong, but before they can even attempt it you will have to give more information. Like what type of primer are you using. The Kind of bullet or sabot you are using and what kind of pressure you had seating the bullet or sabot. Anything else you can think of no matter how small it seems to you.

My bullet is a hornady sst 250 grain with a red crush rib sabot. Its been the best combo cause my barrel seems bigger. Meaning with some sabots I can push down with a finger or 2. Not so with using the red crush ribs. My primer is the Remington sts primers. At the woods we reloaded with my brother combo which is the black crush rib. When we got to our evening spot I pushed out that load and reloaded with my combo. Some powder stuck to the breech plug so I did blow on but didn't I spit or anything like that. I shot 2 does on the 30th when it was 2 degrees.

My brother combo in his traditions is hornady sst 250 with black crush rib and a cci magnum primer. I think his is do to long of a flame channel.

I don't know much about the Remington sts primer but in that cold weather I would be inclined to use a Winchester ww209 or CCI mag primers. As long as your sabot loads with a fair amount of resistance I would think BH 209 would have gone off. Blackhorn needs a tight bullet on top of the powder. I have an Accura V2 and the black crush rib sabot falls down my barrel, I can't use it. I use the SST/ML 250 also with a T/C superglide sabot, very accurate and loads great. I know it has been said that a long flame channel cools the primer gasses a lot, but I have a T/C Pro hunter and it has a fairly long flame channel and I have never had any problems using WW 209 primers. As far as your gun I would go to a hotter primer. At home on a 2 to 6 below day load your gun up the same as when you were hunting, set it outside for a couple of hours and then put in a WW 209 or CCI mag primer and try to shoot it. If it was the primer being too cold your gun should go off.

When you have been shooting your gun have you been cleaning out the flame channel? you should use a 1/8" drill bit every 3 to 6 shots using finger pressure only, if you don't your flame channel could become restricted and cause a FTF. If you haven't been cleaning it wrap black electrical tape around the shank of a 1/8" drill bit until you can grip it firmly. Then use it to clean your Breech Plug. Not inferring you haven't but just wanted to check.

Yes I use a drill bit and torch tip cleaners. Every time I have brought it home from shooting the breech plug has always been dry. Pulled the plug out tonight and it definitely had moisture with some powder stuck in the bigger hole of the plug.

I was so pissed when it happened. Mainly due to saying that wont happen with my gun. I could have shot a doe with my bow. But wanted my brother to get his 2nd ever deer.

??? He said it fizzled and the bullet only went a few feet... What in the h3ll does it matter what the bullet or sabot combo was? It sounds like a moisture problem to me!

BPS

Rem STS is a good, hot, BH209 primer.

The moisture appears to be the culprit. How did we get a wet plug?

It has something to do with temp changes. My guess is the gun was cold, warm, cold, warm a few time.

Proposed solution: Leave the gun cold once loaded in these temps.

FYI.. I shot my deer last year at -5 with BH209 and a Winchester primer in a Knight Disc Extreme.

CCI209M or Federal 209A ....... and unless you fall in a creek, get caught in pouring rain with your barrel pointed up or, have the wrong breech plug, BH will go off if the bullet is seated tight. Keep the flash channel cleaned of carbon.
I've shot BH since I could get my hands on it, and in some pretty nasty, wet high moisture weather, including negative digit temps and never had a FTF or hangfire using magnum primers.

Personally, and this is just me, I suspect the powder. Sorry but I do. While range time with the powder is fun, something about all the quirks of this powder just rub me wrong. One reason when my supply runs out, that will be fine.

Both of the rifles you mention, unless you were rolling in the snow making snow angels (but at -6º that's not recommended), or standing in a rain storm are very water resistant rifle models. A tight sabot should stop what little moisture might make it down the barrel And the closed breech design of the gun, should have kept that area good.

When I had problems getting BlackHorn to ignite in my Optima, I got the same gambit of excuses, wrong breech plug, didn't scrape the carbon out with a drill bit, too loose a sabot, weak primers, and by the way your STS Remington is a HOT primers...

Now the cold temperatures should not be a culprit. After all if a rifle can not fire in the cold then to me its of no value. Condensation in the powder area, although the rifle was loaded fresh after the shot you say... so this is confusing as normally there is a clear fire channel, and the powder is dry. If you shot a rifle and then reloaded it. Unless you used a soaking wet patch and swabbed, which, with BH209 you don't have to do.

I personally suspect the powder. And I can't put a finger on why. I would hunt cold weather when ever possible with Black Powder #1 tried and true, Pyrodex RS, or Triple Seven. In that order. But I know the BH209 readers will not like my answer. I would test my theory, after all the wind chill here was -40º so that should qualify.. but I don't want to shoot in that kind of cold anymore.

BH209 resulting in fizzle = loose sabot (which it sounds like, yours is not.) Condensation in the powder... which you fire the rifle before this and it shot fine, then reloaded with dry powder and same sabot and got a fizzle. So that don't seem to be it. You're using a hot primer and have the right breech plug... so what's left? I suspect the powder failed with the combination you have. So I would change powders. I'd rather clean a rifle five minutes more, the miss a deer.

With the proper breech plug BH209 will do anything any other powder will do and more!!!

Its very simple, take the breech plug to a local machine shop and have the flame channel drilled out to 5/32 and have it tapped for a ventliner. This procedure is BETTER for all powders not just BH209.

I agree. Have a friend with a Traditions rifle that shoots it like a mad man with BH and in bitter cold. Never has had a FTF. My closest friend has a CVA Acura, one of the originals, who only enlarged the flash hole, hunts in the current weather conditions and has never had a FTF. You could take either of those rifles, load them properly, let them set out in this weather for days and both would fire. If the breech plug is designed for and clean, bullet seated properly, there's some other reason why that specific rifle FTF. I'd rather shoot BH than any other propellant.

Don't use any water-containing swabbing agent with BH 209. No stuff like T/C 13.... anything mixed with water. Don't drench the patch either. Use a gun solvent or synthetic CLP for swabbing/cleaning. Always follow-up that swab with both sides of a dry patch or two.

Don't expose the ML to vast temperature changes when loaded. Lastly, fire three primers prior to installing your hunting load and make sure that load going down the bore is not a loose fit.

.... and watch out for the #2 God listed below....:poke:

Do you think it is possible that because it was so very cold, and you had been out in the cold for awhile, and wearing lots of clothes, and shivering, you didn't get the bullet tight to the powder? Perhaps you thought the bullet was tight to the powder, but because of what you were wearing, and what you were feeling, the bullet was just a tad loose? Being loosely contained, may have caused the powder to fizzle.

Go easy with the torch tip cleaner, it shouldn't be necessary to use one when using shotgun primers--they are like miniature sand blasters, and they themselves keep the flash hole open. Shotgun primers erode the flash hole larger with each shot, and after a few hundred shots, the flash hole may be large enough for powder granules to dribble through.

Using the proper sized drill is a necessity to keep the flame channel open. It wouldn't hurt to enlarge the flame channel to 5/32", just don't drill too deep, or you will eliminate the flash hole.

In those temperatures all you have to do is set it in front of the car heater then take it back out in the cold and you will have moisture in the barrel in and out of any warm area will do it.
Any amount of moisture in the back of the powder or in the BP will cause the problems you describe with any powder.

Hard to say exactly what caused your problem. Some good ideas posted above to work through.

Certainly BH209 is a good powder and if the gun is set up properly to shoot it, most have great success with it. But, and this is no disrespect to BH209, I've never ever had a FTF using Pyrodex in over 25yrs of shooting and hunting. Good weather or bad, cold or hot, target shooting or hunting, and with many different rifles. 2 yrs ago I brought my gun in and out of the cold about every other day for 2 mos (going from avg temp 25 to 75) with no ill effect on it going off perfectly.

I completely understand why some folks like BH, but just because there is a new fangled fancy powder available, doesn't automatically mean everything else pales in comparison. I would bet if the OP had been using T7, Pyrodex, or BP.... those shots go off, and they have meat on the ground. I could be wrong, but that is my gut feeling.

I'm definitely not against BH at all, nor am I saying any powder is better or worse than another. I hope this post doesn't come across that way. In fact, I am planning to get some BH soon, to shoot in a rifle I recently picked up. I think it will be a good fit for it. But I think like most things...technology sometimes sets us back as we move forward. The old 'don't fix it if it ain't broke' comes to mind.

I know for me personally, to this point.... there hasn't been any situation where using a powder other than pyrodex would have made any difference at all. Sure, all the different powders have their pros/cons. For BH - not having to swab at the range, having less smoke or smell... to some those are a big deal. To me, they aren't really. The smoke and smell to me, is what BP hunting/shooting is all about. Regarding cleaning, well I'm gonna clean my rifle anyhow... it doesn't matter what powder I'm using and if its a little dirtier or cleaner when I do.

Lee, I would say that it certainly "could" cause a problem, but doesn't mean that it will. After what I did with my rifle 2yrs ago...I'm not concerned with that at all anymore. You couldn't create any more moisture than I did, short of pouring water down in the barrel. I had 2 knight mk-85's that were in and out of extreme temp swings, (one probably 30+ times on avg 50 degree temp change) and both fired off like I just loaded them...two months later.

Why, I'm not sure... it certainly goes against all conventional thinking.

The powder chamber of the Blackhorn QRBP plug is so deep that if one installed a vent liner in it, the flame channel could end up being only 1/4" long. Enlarging the flame channel to 5/32" would be beneficial.

Just what to add to all the good points everyone has said. did you clean all the oil out of the barrel before loading and the breech plug. and make sure you have no blow back around the primer. I've shoot BH in -10 in Colorado and the gun was doing better then me.

"Temp was negative 2. So we reload my cva and head to our evening spot."

What method did you use to reload the CVA? I use the black TC speedloaders with BH 209. I always wondered if having them in extreme cold then shoving them in your pocket or some other warm area would cause moisture to form inside the loaders. The powder may have been contaminated when you went to reload.

Just a thought.

Looking at the picture you supplied, im surprised there is a problem with that plug.

To my knowledge there is no problem with the plug when it comes to igniting Blackhorn. The interior dimensions are virtually identical to the Encore/Omega plug. Western Powders knew the Omega plug worked reliably to ignite their powder, so when they made a plug themselves, it seems they just copied the plug that worked the best.

The only thing I can think of is the action of blowing on the plug trying to get old powder off. Really didn't think it hurt but if any saliva got on the plug that could cause moisture. I'm also thinking it was cause of putting it in warm truck. I noticed the primer was cleaner than normal. I been getting some dirty primers when I have shot it. Maybe the the primer was more of a dud? I accidentally washed one our speed loaders last night. Couldn't believe it when I threw the powder in the fire place. It flamed up immediately. I'm at a loss and we only have 3 days left of season so way I see it we don't have time to mess with sighting in a different powder.

In my opinion, you would of had the same problem with any other powder as well. Clean and put the gun back together and go hunting.

It matters a He!! of a lot, loose fit bullet over BH 209 is asking for FTF

Only other thing I noticed is my the firing pin. The fat end seems a little worn. Its the end that hammer strikes. Took my daughter firing pin out of her wolf and mine has more wear. Kind of shiny and smooth. Would that of caused any problems with not striking the primer hard enough?

These dirty primers indicate some debris is getting around the primer, and perhaps also into the firing pin bushing. Perhaps your firing pin was sticking in the bushing in the extreme cold, because of debris between the firing pin, and the bushing.

Are you serious or are you trolling, I don't think that gun will ever work for you, you may as well mail it to me!

Yes, i was serious.. If the blow back gets past the primer into the bushing, it will make the firing pin motion 'sticky'. It is conceivable, at least to me his, firing pin may have been not freely moving in the bitter cold weather, and hit the primer weakly. It was just a thought..

Well, i guess since i am not worthy of owning my rifle.. send me your address, and i may send you my rifle.

Hey Ron can you read post number 26 and tell me if that matters?

I take out the firing pin every time I clean it. So I don't think there was debris. Though that very thing is what was wrong with my brothers traditions. He got it to fire bh for several shots after cleaning firing pin. Then it failed on him again.

Sorry Ron I was addressing the fat end of the firing pin being worn, I hit the wrong quote button, thanks for not hitting me with everything but the kitchen sink.

REALLY??? Ive tried to make that happen and never could. I think if the bullet sabot is on top of the powder it will go off every time. Like Ron said, there is a chance the bullet sabot was not down all the way??? Who knows, but it is possible.

To me that seems insignificant.. but..

What about the hammer fall? Is the hammer pivot lubricated with an oil that may thicken in the cold, and reduce the speed of the hammer when it falls?

Well.. here's hoping Bro succeeds the next time!!!!! If possible, stay warm..

Does this mean i get to keep my rifle?

yup! * * *

Thanks for all of the replies. I have cleaned it and shot 2 primers through. I haven't put any oil around the hammer. With the worn end its a tad shorter than the firing pin on my daughter wolf. That's why I asked. We are running to see the gun smith at scheels. Hoping they have new firing pins in stock.

I'm probably good but rather be safe than good. The firing wasn't that worn a few shots ago.

Suppose to get near 20 today but with 25 mph winds it feel near zero. But we will be heading to the woods regardless of cold.

To the guy that said he doubt this would of happened with other powders! That was my first thought if I had kept my knight and had triple seven those be dead deer. As some know on here I rid of the knight to shoot a rifle approved for black horn. :barmy:

Buckfever, I'm guessing you meant me. I don't know if it would have been a problem or not. That was just my gut, based on my experience with Pyrodex mostly, and reg black powder some.

Obviously these guys are way more experienced than I with BH209. They've given you some great tips to run with. Good luck on your future hunt.

Oh, and I'm sure you know the Knights DO shoot BH209 quite well also. :D

Yep it my gut feeling as well when it happened. Mainly cause I kept telling my bro it happen to my gun. I believe it was a moisture issue.

The gun smith thought the fat end of firing pin being worn down(almost looking smashed and shiny) could cause problems. Luckily he had one he gave me for free. Not sure if it make difference but comparing new one and my worn down one , the worn one is shorter.

I knights shoot bh209 well but my gun was a plunger type and didn't want to risk it anymore.

That's it then; the new firing pin insures a kill. Don't forget to leave seed stock.

Ron you are a funny guy!

My brother used a number 64 drill bit to drill out the flash hole on his traditions breech plug. So far his gun is now igniting blackhorn and with clean primers!

He missed a nice doe tonight but I got one so my gun worked as well! Tomorrow is the last day of the season. So hopefully he can get his 2nd ever deer.