Gm54-120

You stated a break action is less finicky yet you can not back up that statement with any facts. Shooting matches are a direct reflection of inherent accuracy of a specific action style. Bolt actions dominate competition and vastly popular in centerfire hunting rifles.

I would love to see any facts you have to dispute this.

Break actions (in general) are also not the easiest to access the trigger assembly. Its nearly impossible to remove some without gunsmith skills or tools. The only simple solution is to remve the rear stock and hose it out with gun scrubber. Then HOPE you got it clean.

I can run a shotgun brush through a Knight or similar bolt action and clean the entire breach with one tool. Unlike a break action with odd angle nooks and "crannies". I could dunk the whole breach in a bucket or even a 1 liter bottle if i was so inclined and all i need to remove is one bolt from the trigger assembly.

Easier to clean? Hardly unless just swabbing the barrel means "clean".

Less finicky? Hardly

Simple, yes they sure are simple and a decent choice for a novice in that regard.

The facts dont support the entire conclusion other than a quick release breach plug.

First time buyer who isnt sure he will even like a ML. Get a new Optima in SS. (Assuming a closed breach and 209 primers are legal in your area) You wont be out much $$ if you dont like the sport or want to upgrade later. PACNW legal, look at the Knight Bighorns or even a older used White Rifle. They are about as simple as it gets and built like tanks.

Muley Hunter

He said he was hunting deer in response to me asking him what he's hunting. We still need to know where he's hunting to recommend a load. We still don't know what sort of gun he had in mind.

When you want a complete answer. You need to give more info. Just like if he walked in a gun shop for a gun. they would ask the same questions I did. Most of you are recommending guns and loads, and you don't even know if he can use them in his state.

d.winsor

Fact #1 my CVA is not finicky, Fact #2 never been in a muzzleloading competition and don't plan on it, OP may or may not consider it. If OP does than maybe the information on bolt actions would be valid. I don't need to dispute anything, I am not in an argument. Access to trigger assembly, I don't need it, if I did I would send my gun back to CVA so they would not void my warranty, My breech area does not get dirty enough to require me to regularly try to disassemble my trigger assembly. I am not familiar with odd nooks and crannies in my inline. "Facts don't support..." The only fact I see is that you don't like CVA inline guns. I hope the OP got something useful out of your post, that is what this is suppose to be about.

d.winsor

You people just love wrecking a thread, don't you, as far as recommending a load anyone with any muzzleloading experience can give load recommendation for balls, conical, or sabots that would kill any deer. He is just looking for a place to start. As far as I am concerned I gave him recommendations for a break action gun, If someone has any other suggestions for a bolt action or traditional gun I am sure he would be open to suggestions. I appears to me OP would be better off walking into a gun shop to try to get information on muzzleloaders, seems to me only a few posts offered any information here.

Gm54-120

FACT: i recommended a CVA for a first time buyer and ive done so many times. Feel free to look it up. I also used to own a CVA Accura 45cal but sold it because another 45cal was lighter and shot better with the loads i preferred.
FACT: all i see is you recommending CVAs in this thread and i gave insight to other brands and styles. Pluses and minuses.
That usually how it goes when an opinion is not backed up with facts. Divert and evade the topic into something else. Shoot the messenger because you dont like the message.

Muley Hunter

I wouldn't be in this thread if I wasn't trying to help him. I just want my advice to be something he can use. You wouldn't know he was just hunting for deer if I didn't ask him.

d.winsor

Yes all I am recommending is CVA guns in this thread, with a complete description of every break action gun CVA makes. I have a T/C Pro Hunter that I would like to recommend because mine shoots great. I have read too many other threads where people have trouble with them grouping sabots or conical, and have to modify their guns. I can't in good conscience recommend one to OP. Also with S&W buyout of T/C and what has happened since I don't know how long T/C will be around. I also have 2 cap lock T/C guns, I like them but I would not recommend them to a new comer. Personally I don't believe a knight is easier to clean than my CVA break action, I guess if one loves them and they are accurate for them then it is all good.
Muley hunter name one suggestion that you have made on this thread to the OP that was good information for him to use to select a muzzleloader. You don't have to have his pedigree to make a recommendation, just what guns you like, bullets you shoot and powder you would recommend. If I were that concerned about where they live I would give them some information about checking with their state DNR and have him ask what the regulations are. Truthfully I would not worry about it as there are not that many states that require NW muzzleloaders. I hope the OP is getting something out of this. I don't think the OP was asking a vague question, he said he was looking to buy a muzzleloader and was wanting to know what a good brand was. There is a bunch of information that could be given to satisfy his needs for now. You don't need to know if he is going to hunt deer, maybe he just wants it to go to the range. I would assume that any gun you would recommend would be capable to hunt deer or punch holes in paper.

ram2

CVA guarantees the accuracy of their guns. Does Knight and T/C ?

Gm54-120

My whole point is easier is not always better nor did i claim Knights in general are easier to clean. NW vs NW they are all a pain vs a closed breach system with good head spacing.

Personally i dont like cleaning the crud after a range session so my preference for range time is smokeless. I clean when i feel like it. When hunting they get cleaned anyway depending on weather conditions and success.

It really doesn't get much easier/cleaner than a Savage MLII, 5744 and a 3.1-3.4CC Lee dipper but i have a hard time recommending them to a novice. Mainly due to barrel and stock quality. If you like to tinker and customize, its a great platform.

I dont recommend a Mountaineer or higher end CVA either to a first timer. Simply because of the initial cost of investment. I may if he was well skilled in maintaining a CF in adverse weather and had the cash to blow. Personally im a little fond of the CVA Apex with the Euro wood stocks. IMO its a little better value than a T/C Pro Hunter but im well past switch barrel platforms....Been there done that and its not for me.

My personal favorite is my ULA but there is no way i would recommend a $1800 rifle to someone that has never owned a ML before. Its a bit too specialized for a novice and costly.

Hence my recommendation of the Optima in SS. Its fairly light, BH209 capable (with the right breach plug) and fairly priced for what you get. You also wont be out big $$$$ if your cleaning skills are not upto par. Ive seen no major accuracy issue with them inside of normal hunting ranges.

Gm54-120

Sure go look at Knights website. They have been doing it for a long long time. IIRC they were the first ML vendors to offer a accuracy warranty. Its roughly 2MOA at 200yards.


I dont think T/C ever has.

BTW what level of accuracy does CVA guarantee or do they just claim MOST Accurate you ever owned? MOST is a huge claim from a company that has never taken a Manufactures match title. Both Knight and White have taken many of them. Savage did ok once or twice. Ultimate has taken several in other matches.