Strange Scope Shift
09-27-2012, 01:48 PM
#1
Dominant Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
Strange Scope Shift
I wanted to test some different bullets today in my White Model 97 Whitetail Hunter .451 caliber. It has a 1-20 twist I believe. And it wears a Bushnell 3200 Elite 2-7x32mm.
Last time out, I was shooting some conicals made by a forum member and ended up adjusting the scope a little. Today I was going to shoot some 40 caliber Lehigh 200 grain brass bullets in light blue harvester sabots, and some .452 diameter 250 grain Lehighs but shoot them as a conical bullet.. no sabots.
Sabotloader told me they liked a lot of powder and he normally shoots Triple Seven 3f with them and swabs with Windex. So I decided to copy his shooting and see what happens. As many know, I normally don't shoot large loads of any kind of powder.
I thought I had set the target between 70-75 yards. The range finder gave me two readings of 68 yards so we called it that. I was using a double bag system rest and was rock solid.
Look at how much the first two shots were off. 90 grains of 3f Triple Seven and a 200 grain Lehigh. They loaded like a dream. Very firm but an easy push. But I was doing like Sabotloader does and swabbing between shots with a single patch and windex on it. There was no crud ring from shooting Triple Seven 3f today. The first two I had my glasses on.
I noticed that because I was in bright sunlight (and 50 degrees) shooting into some deep shadows in the woods, I removed my glasses and tried two without glasses... funny it should change where I hit. But actually, letting the scope be my glasses, I could see much clearer. Has anyone else with poor vision like me, noticed the glasses phenonemon?
I then swabbed the barrel clean, and I mean clean. I decided to try the conicals. These are a .452 Lehigh 250 grain brass bullet. I stuck with the 90 grains of 3f and no glasses to see what happened and where they would hit.
I fired three shots. And I am going to go out on a limb here... I don't like the feel of an unlubed brass conical being seated through my bore. Now granted, they had to be smacked hard to get them in the bore. But once in there, other then a scraping feeling, they loaded fine. They shot pretty good also. And actually hit in about the same place as the 200 grain 40 caliber.
I had noted that Sabotloader likes to shoot 110 grains of 3f Triple Seven with his bullets. So as much as I dislike this.. I did it too. I also made a scope adjustment. The first two were perfect. And I am not sure, but I might have flinched a little on #3 because it actually came back and the scope hit my hat. So something was different. But wow.. the accuracy was very good. And looking at the kind of velocity Sabotlaoder gets with that load.. that bullet is hauling!!!
Then being a glutton for punishment, I shot four of the 250 grain conicals/no sabots with 110 grains of 3f Triple Seven. I know I flinched on one of them because my nose got bumped. Like I said, I am not fond of stiff loads. I shoot a very loose, go ahead and kick me kind of style. They did not really do all that bad.
Then to double check the double check, I broke out some 488 grain Bull Shop Conical bullets. I also got some 2f powder Triple Seven because the rifle likes that. I swabbed the bore clean. And I mean clean. Even taking the plunger out, cleaning that and the open breech area. The first shot was to the left. And not being crazy, I lowered the powder charge to 65 grains. More then enough to make that big bullet take out anything in my woods. The next four were just the way a White Rifle should shoot... large conicals, a good powder charge, and the kind of accuracy I demand.
On a side note.. no crud rings today. Before going in the house, I leaned the rifle against the bench, opened the breech, and squirted several blasts of windex down the bore. The with two soaking windex wet patches, swabbed the bore. When I got in the house, and took the rifle apart to clean it.. the barrel was clean. While some of you long range shooters need these little fireballs to shoot 200 yards...
I think I will stick with 65 grains of powder and a fat conical bullet. And let the deer fall where they may.. What a day on the range. A rifle that behaved, powder that behaved, caps, and most of all pretty good accuracy all around.
Last time out, I was shooting some conicals made by a forum member and ended up adjusting the scope a little. Today I was going to shoot some 40 caliber Lehigh 200 grain brass bullets in light blue harvester sabots, and some .452 diameter 250 grain Lehighs but shoot them as a conical bullet.. no sabots.
Sabotloader told me they liked a lot of powder and he normally shoots Triple Seven 3f with them and swabs with Windex. So I decided to copy his shooting and see what happens. As many know, I normally don't shoot large loads of any kind of powder.
I thought I had set the target between 70-75 yards. The range finder gave me two readings of 68 yards so we called it that. I was using a double bag system rest and was rock solid.
Look at how much the first two shots were off. 90 grains of 3f Triple Seven and a 200 grain Lehigh. They loaded like a dream. Very firm but an easy push. But I was doing like Sabotloader does and swabbing between shots with a single patch and windex on it. There was no crud ring from shooting Triple Seven 3f today. The first two I had my glasses on.
I noticed that because I was in bright sunlight (and 50 degrees) shooting into some deep shadows in the woods, I removed my glasses and tried two without glasses... funny it should change where I hit. But actually, letting the scope be my glasses, I could see much clearer. Has anyone else with poor vision like me, noticed the glasses phenonemon?
I then swabbed the barrel clean, and I mean clean. I decided to try the conicals. These are a .452 Lehigh 250 grain brass bullet. I stuck with the 90 grains of 3f and no glasses to see what happened and where they would hit.
I fired three shots. And I am going to go out on a limb here... I don't like the feel of an unlubed brass conical being seated through my bore. Now granted, they had to be smacked hard to get them in the bore. But once in there, other then a scraping feeling, they loaded fine. They shot pretty good also. And actually hit in about the same place as the 200 grain 40 caliber.
I had noted that Sabotloader likes to shoot 110 grains of 3f Triple Seven with his bullets. So as much as I dislike this.. I did it too. I also made a scope adjustment. The first two were perfect. And I am not sure, but I might have flinched a little on #3 because it actually came back and the scope hit my hat. So something was different. But wow.. the accuracy was very good. And looking at the kind of velocity Sabotlaoder gets with that load.. that bullet is hauling!!!
Then being a glutton for punishment, I shot four of the 250 grain conicals/no sabots with 110 grains of 3f Triple Seven. I know I flinched on one of them because my nose got bumped. Like I said, I am not fond of stiff loads. I shoot a very loose, go ahead and kick me kind of style. They did not really do all that bad.
Then to double check the double check, I broke out some 488 grain Bull Shop Conical bullets. I also got some 2f powder Triple Seven because the rifle likes that. I swabbed the bore clean. And I mean clean. Even taking the plunger out, cleaning that and the open breech area. The first shot was to the left. And not being crazy, I lowered the powder charge to 65 grains. More then enough to make that big bullet take out anything in my woods. The next four were just the way a White Rifle should shoot... large conicals, a good powder charge, and the kind of accuracy I demand.
On a side note.. no crud rings today. Before going in the house, I leaned the rifle against the bench, opened the breech, and squirted several blasts of windex down the bore. The with two soaking windex wet patches, swabbed the bore. When I got in the house, and took the rifle apart to clean it.. the barrel was clean. While some of you long range shooters need these little fireballs to shoot 200 yards...
I think I will stick with 65 grains of powder and a fat conical bullet. And let the deer fall where they may.. What a day on the range. A rifle that behaved, powder that behaved, caps, and most of all pretty good accuracy all around.
09-27-2012, 02:35 PM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Dave, glad you were able to get to those bullets....
One bullet was a 45-220 as seen in the picture on the left below.
The second bullet was a 50-270 bullet shown in the picture below.
Questions... in the 451 White and once through the crown, how would you compare the effort of pushing the bullet down to seat as compared to pushing down a sabot and projectile? I as that because on a Knight Bore the bullet is just a bit large and the body of the bullet is engaraved as well as the gas rings.
If you look at this picture carefully you can see the engraving on the body of the bullet.
Because the powder cup is brass instead of copper, lead, or plastic - it will take a decent amount of pressure to get it to obturate to the bore. Anyway that was my thinking. Because of the design though it is not ablsolutely necessary that the cup expand to the bore as the gas rings or bore riding rings are set and hold the gas pressure.
I know what you mean about pushing the unlubricated brass down the bore... but from everything I have been told Brass is self lubricating and is so much softer than the metal of the bore it does not harm the bore. In this case because of the design grease is not need to help hold gas or or lubricate - like shooting a brass or copper bullet out of a centerfire bore.
Do you know who made the barrel on the Whitetail Hunter - or better yet what does the crown look like that will tell me who made it? I think Doc used two different barrels on the 451's.
Basically same questions for the 50 cal White...
a. How much pressure to push down?
b. Which barrel on the 50? I know with the Clerke barrel they are just a bit loose for me but shoot great.
Last question - hunting accuracy can get hunting accuracy or better with them? Would they be worth working up a load?
One last thing I found that the 200 with sabot and the 220 sabotless shot close to the same place also...
One bullet was a 45-220 as seen in the picture on the left below.
The second bullet was a 50-270 bullet shown in the picture below.
Questions... in the 451 White and once through the crown, how would you compare the effort of pushing the bullet down to seat as compared to pushing down a sabot and projectile? I as that because on a Knight Bore the bullet is just a bit large and the body of the bullet is engaraved as well as the gas rings.
If you look at this picture carefully you can see the engraving on the body of the bullet.
Because the powder cup is brass instead of copper, lead, or plastic - it will take a decent amount of pressure to get it to obturate to the bore. Anyway that was my thinking. Because of the design though it is not ablsolutely necessary that the cup expand to the bore as the gas rings or bore riding rings are set and hold the gas pressure.
I know what you mean about pushing the unlubricated brass down the bore... but from everything I have been told Brass is self lubricating and is so much softer than the metal of the bore it does not harm the bore. In this case because of the design grease is not need to help hold gas or or lubricate - like shooting a brass or copper bullet out of a centerfire bore.
Do you know who made the barrel on the Whitetail Hunter - or better yet what does the crown look like that will tell me who made it? I think Doc used two different barrels on the 451's.
Basically same questions for the 50 cal White...
a. How much pressure to push down?
b. Which barrel on the 50? I know with the Clerke barrel they are just a bit loose for me but shoot great.
Last question - hunting accuracy can get hunting accuracy or better with them? Would they be worth working up a load?
One last thing I found that the 200 with sabot and the 220 sabotless shot close to the same place also...
09-27-2012, 04:29 PM
#5
Dominant Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
ED it is an amazing rifle and really not fussy at all.
Sabotloader the barrel make is the same as the Ultra Mag. And once IN the bore, the length of the short starter, other then the feeling of brass on steel, its not slip fit by any means, but it is not all that hard to move down the bore and seat.
Why is it, that this brass does so well with a powerful charge. I mean 110 grains of 3f Triple Seven is nothing to sneeze at. That bullet has to be moving.
Maybe tomorrow I will try the .504 in the Bison. See how they fit. I know the bore on that is tighter then the Ultra Mag. But we will see. I thought they were 200 grain, but they were 220 then?
Sabotloader the barrel make is the same as the Ultra Mag. And once IN the bore, the length of the short starter, other then the feeling of brass on steel, its not slip fit by any means, but it is not all that hard to move down the bore and seat.
Why is it, that this brass does so well with a powerful charge. I mean 110 grains of 3f Triple Seven is nothing to sneeze at. That bullet has to be moving.
Maybe tomorrow I will try the .504 in the Bison. See how they fit. I know the bore on that is tighter then the Ultra Mag. But we will see. I thought they were 200 grain, but they were 220 then?
09-27-2012, 05:21 PM
#6
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
ED it is an amazing rifle and really not fussy at all.
Sabotloader the barrel make is the same as the Ultra Mag. And once IN the bore, the length of the short starter, other then the feeling of brass on steel, its not slip fit by any means, but it is not all that hard to move down the bore and seat.
Why is it, that this brass does so well with a powerful charge. I mean 110 grains of 3f Triple Seven is nothing to sneeze at. That bullet has to be moving.
Maybe tomorrow I will try the .504 in the Bison. See how they fit. I know the bore on that is tighter then the Ultra Mag. But we will see. I thought they were 200 grain, but they were 220 then?
Sabotloader the barrel make is the same as the Ultra Mag. And once IN the bore, the length of the short starter, other then the feeling of brass on steel, its not slip fit by any means, but it is not all that hard to move down the bore and seat.
Why is it, that this brass does so well with a powerful charge. I mean 110 grains of 3f Triple Seven is nothing to sneeze at. That bullet has to be moving.
Maybe tomorrow I will try the .504 in the Bison. See how they fit. I know the bore on that is tighter then the Ultra Mag. But we will see. I thought they were 200 grain, but they were 220 then?
Yes they are 40-220 grain and 50-270 grain...
I think I have the targets with the velocity recorded on them...
These are from the two White 50's
This is the 45's from a Knight
09-27-2012, 05:52 PM
#7
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: River Ridge, LA (Suburb of New Orleans)
Posts: 10,917
But actually, letting the scope be my glasses, I could see much clearer. Has anyone else with poor vision like me, noticed the glasses phenonemon?
The funny thing is, I need my glasses with a peep sight and it doesn't seem to make any difference what part of the lens I look through with a peep.
09-27-2012, 05:58 PM
#8
Dominant Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
When I was shooting the Bull Shop conicals, I used the scope and no glasses then adjusted the focus. I was amazed, as the smoke would clear you'd see the hole larger. Sure makes you want to shoot more. I really put a lot of stuff down range today.
