Which Sabots?
 

Here's the deal. I broke a rib, and won't be hunting the ML season this year. I'll be helping Jon get a bull, but I won't be hunting for myself.

So, I swapped my tag for a 2nd rifle bull elk tag. I'll still be using the MR for the hunt. It's an unusual CVA barrel, because it take s a .502 Thor bullet. This is my 7th CVA, and I never had one that big. It might even take a .503 Thor if I could get it started. I don't have one to try.

The problem is the bore is a bit bigger right over the powder. I'm not comfortable with a loose fit. I wouldn't want it moving off the powder before I noticed it. Not good for the gun, or my health.

So, with all that said. I'm thinking of using a sabot for a tighter fit. It's legal in Colorado for rifle seasons. I'm not up on what fits and what doesn't. I still like the Barnes bullet, but I don't know which bullet and sabot would work in my bore.

I'm also open to any other suggesting. Bull elk are tough, so I want a bullet that will stay together. Of course it has to be accurate too.

Whatcha think?

I think you will find the Barnes Tmz 290 gr with yellow sabot to fit good. I could send a couple if you want to make sure before you buy any.

I'd appreciate it. Someone else is sending me a different bullet to see how it fits. I'd like to try the Barnes too.

Thanks.

MMP Short black or Harvester Red Crushribs if you want to shoot .451-.452 bullets and the Harvester Black Crushrib with .458 bullets should give the best fit in a .502 bore. Those are the ones most commonly used in Savages with loose bores.

Thanks. I've got some testing to do.

Using .458 bullet in a loose bore makes good sense. Something like the Barnes 45-70 bullet may be very good for elk. The 300g TSX Barnes and a black crush rib sabot, fit the loose barrel Knight Extreme, i own, about perfectly. In my opinion the TSX would make an excellent elk bullet.

Ok, I have some information now. I just tried all the sabot/bullets that were sent to me by Mike and SS.

Bore was squeaky clean with alcohol.

Both Lehighs load firm, but smooth all the way down. I don't even feel the loose (?) spot.

290gr TMZ with yellow sabot loaded really firm all the way down

340gr Dead center with orange sabot loaded firm all the way down.

250gr Shockwave yellow tip with black sabot loaded firm all the way down.

250gr Red Hot with orange sabot loaded firm all the way down.

Not sure what this bullet is? It says 300gr Jacketed with black sabot. Was way too tight and got stuck just a few inches down the bore. I had to pound it back out.

495gr No Excuse almost fell through the bore. way too loose.

Whatcha all think? Will these all load harder after I shoot one with BH 209? Will plastic build up, and do I need to swab?

Plastic build up is a non-issue these days if you are using the newer sabots.

Shooting bh should allow you to load any of the .458 with Orange MMP sabots with out running a patch, and if that is the case a regular harvester 45x50 and an MMP HPH-24 (black) 45x50 should load well also. With any of these sabots you should not need to run a patch shooting BH.

I would say that your bore is very close to a standard 50 cal barrel rather than being classified as a tight bore.

Sounds like its close to a .504 . Maybe you should slug it and see. But from the sound of it most of those standard saboted bullets will work well.

Being pretty new to loading sabots. How much pressure is normal to get it down?

I have to use both hands to get it down to a point that I can put my bodyweight on the end of the ramrod. Normal?

What was that one you called a 300gr jacketed? I would have need a hammer to get that one down.

That sounds normal. 30-40 pounds is probably average . A tight fit is usually better for accuracy and what you describe sounds about right

That's an old original Knight jacketed bullet with the old formula high pressure sabot. I figured if your bore was loose that might work. I think your bore is about average but definitely not loose because all the others loaded the way they should.

Yeah, a nice tight fit. Since i'm pushing them out the breech. I can look at the sabots, and they have some deep grooves from the rifling.

Thanks again to both of you guys for sending me some sabots/bullets to try.

Now I need to decide which ones i'm going to buy.

Once you them you will probably know which ones to buy. ;)

Did you mean once I shoot them?

Oh man! This was all for nothing, and I don't know why I didn't think about this before.

I knew that if I used a muzzleloader during rifle season that a scope, sabots, and pellets were legal. Those laws only apply for the ML season, but I just thought of another law that might not be, and I just called the DOW to verify it.

One of the laws is you have to use a .45 cal for deer, and a .50 cal for elk. That doesn't change for rifle season. So, using a smaller bullet with a sabot is not legal for elk, unless I started with a .54 cal gun.

Now i'm back to square one.

Dumb law. You telling me a 300gr .45 cal bullet won't kill an elk? Sometimes Colorado is annoying.

Exactly Not sure what happened

If you need a 50 cal bullet for elk then you are back to a conical because even the 54's as far as saboted bullets are not 50 cal.bullets

That bullet is probably sabotted with a MMP short black sabot which is .506 and would be awfull tight in a .503-504 bore.

Pete, I have the sabots you need for your 54 cal sidlelock if you still have the 54 and if you can find a box of Speer 50 cal deep curls and you are in business.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballist...il.aspx?id=215

50 cal 300 grain Deep curl...

Just use a 50 cal conical would be the easiest. You can handle recoil for one shot. Use jons lead sled to sight it in then you are good to go.
If you have a 54 then that's a different story

Muley - then you are back to the 300 grain Thors for the MR. It will shoot them just fine even with the bore problem at the powder end. The bullet will obturate to the bore both up and down.

The only thing might be if you can hold compression of the bh long enough to get total ignition. If not you might have to go to T7 which is not all that bad.

The thors would be the way to go or even an FPB that's for sure.

Muley

It might also be worth while to call CVA and share with them your problem, especially being in Colorado and ask about swapping barrels out for a new one.

One more question... with a powder load/column in the barrel does the bullet sit in the wide spot or is that spot inside the column. If it is inside the column - who cares?

No, it starts a few inches before the powder charge. It shoots the 250gr Thors fine. I posted the target in my MR range report. I just don't like a bullet that loose over the powder while hunting. If it moves off the powder, and I get a shot at an elk before checking it. I've ruined the barrel, and maybe my face.

I don't have the .54 Renegade anymore, and it had a GM RB barrel anyway. I just mentioned the .54, because it's the only way to shoot a sabot for elk in Co.

I just bought two new files, and knurled the hell out of the .502 Thor. No joy. :(

I tried the same deal with an Optima at CVA. They make you send it back and they try a Powerbelt in the barrel. Of course it has no problem, and they say the barrel is fine. Losing battle.

I might be making a deal for a new Apex. I'll use the ML barrel for deer with sabots, or Thors if they fit, and i'll use a .270 barrel for elk. Done deal.

The regs list .50 caliber muzzleloader can be used during the rifle season , nothing about conicals. The regs list no scopes, pellets or sabots during the muzzleloader season.

FG/MD went over this in 2006....
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/blac...season-co.html

Look at the bullet restrictions for muzzleloaders. It carry's over to the rifle season.

.40 to .50 for deer.

.50 for elk.

Muley Hunter

Steve may have a point...

From the Colorado Big Game Regualtions:

Muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets, provided the minimum caliber shall be forty (.40) for all big game except elk and moose. The minimum caliber for elk and moose shall be fifty (.50). All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets from forty (.40) caliber through fifty (.50) caliber must use a bullet of at least 170 grains in weight. All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets greater than fifty (.50) caliber must use bullets of at least 210 grains in weight.

But during ML season:

During the muzzle-loading firearm seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose the following additional restrictions apply:

1. Propellent/Powders: The use of pelletized powder systems and smokeless powder are prohibited.
2. Projectiles: Sabots are prohibited. For the purposes of this regulation cloth patches are not sabots.
3. Loading: Firearms must load from the muzzle. Firearms which can be loaded from the breech are prohibited.
4. Sights: Any muzzle-loading rifle or smoothbore musket with any sighting device other than open or "iron" sights is prohibited.
5. Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be incorporated into or attached to the muzzle-loading firearm.

It looks to me like during rifle season you must use a projectile with a weight of at least 210 grains.

http://wildlife.state.co.us/SiteColl...tions/Ch02.pdf

Check page 5

I just talked to the DOW. There is no change in rifle season for muzzleloader bullet restrictions. The minimum for elk is .50 cal. I see no way to use a sabot in a .50 cal inline.

The bullet weight is easy to meet. Diameter is what's getting me.

When you called DOW did you talk to an enforcement officer? Because as I go back and read your manual page 5 it does not say that during the regular hunting season. It does indicate all that for ML season.

There is not diameter requirement during rifle season just a weight requirement.

Here is what I looked at: page 12-13
http://www.flipseekpubs.com/publication/?i=96188

You cannot use a crossbow to legally hunt during the elk bow season however can use one during the rifle elk season? So this tells me that this law does not go back to bow hunting regs during rifle season??

It seems all the mumbo jumbo of no scopes/no smokeless powder/no pellets/no sabots only applies to the muzzleloading elk season. I do not or could not find where to use a muzzleloader during rifle season you must use the projectiles stated in the muzzleloading regs that apply for muzzleloader season.

Not my hunt so I will stop looking. Seems like a silly rule if its true.

Not that it matters to Muley but are you sure they don't make 54x50 sabots? Ive got about a 1000 if you want to try some. :D

Didn't know that. I wouldn't mind trying some for my 54 where did you get the sabots for a 50 cal bullet? Are they harvester ?

They are a MMP...

http://www.mmpsabots.com/purple.html

I think the ones GM has are red as mine are...

MMP makes them. There are 2 versions, one made only for Barnes (Red) and the other one (Purple) MMP sells directly. Ive got both colors.

I thought you got some with a MK85 54cal. Knight included a few with 50-325gr Speer bullets.

I'm pretty sure the only one of the ML laws that is the same in rifle season it the .50 cal restriction for elk.

Really stupid. I can legally use a .50 cal 223gr Powerbelt that would barely kill a small deer for elk. I can use a .50 cal PRB for elk.

However, I can't use a 350gr .50 cal sabot. What are they thinking?

The FPB is a thought though. I've never been able to get one down a CVA before, but I think I can with this one.

One last thought would be a .503 Thor if I can get it started.

Gee , I really feel stupid now. ( no comments)
You are right I do have a few that came with the Predator .

Muley Hunter

If the .503 Thors are to small and you have to use a full bore conical let me know... I have an answer

If I was a cheater I could load a sabot in the barrel, and carry Thors in a speedloader to show if I got stopped, but that's not my style.

I could always hunt, and not pull the trigger. Might be hard, but I could do it. The hunt is the fun part. Hauling out the meat from a bull alone will kill me.

Just trying to come up with a plan.