777 Confusion
 

I have read many accounts in which people have stated that you must reduce the max load of 777 to 15% below what BP/Pyrodex would be. And I have read accounts that state otherwise.

Looking at Hogdgon's site it says nothing about having to reduce loads for any other reason but to match the velocity of such loads. I have asked them twice now about the safety of such, but have yet to get a reply. What say you?

And I've also read opposing threads with compression of 777. I only see that you want very light compression if loading in cartridges.

When using 3F instead of 2F (.50 cal) is there a general max load reduction? Traditions told me to reduce by 5grns with no reduction due to projectile, whereas Lyman's would have me reduce it by 20-30 grns depending on bullet weight.

T7 is suppose to have 15% more power as BP/Pyro. You reduce it that much if you want the same load. If you're not at max load with the BP/Pyro you can use the same amount of T7 for an increase of power.

Usually, 3f will have close to 10% more power than 2F.

"If you're not at max load with the BP/Pyro you can use the same amount of T7 for an increase of power."

I'm confused. If the max 3F load is 80 grns can I use 80 grns of 3F 777 or must I reduce it?

What gun are you using that has a max load of 80gr?

Keep going with this Muley... Need to know what gun and generally what weight projectile...

rodwha

Most but not all ML's have a max load of 150 grains of real BP or Pyrodex. If you are using T7-2f you should reduce the the 150 grains by about 15% or if you are using T7-3f reduction is around 25%. Hodgdon recommendations are a bit high as I have found. More like 10% with 2f and 15% with 3f, but it is always better to be safe than sorry...

No rifle yet (only ROA). I'm looking at Lyman's Deerstalker and Trade Rifle mostly, but also at Lyman's Great Plains Hunter, Pedersoli's Country Hunter, and Tradition's Deerhunter.

Lyman's states that a max load (2F/3F) is 100/90 for lightweight sabots and 100/80 for heavy sabots and conicals. 110/90 for RB.

I intend on using 3F 777 in the ROA and would like to use just one powder.

Opinions will vary but my opinion is that your most reliable ignition in a sidelock will be with black powder. I am not saying the subs won't work cuz they will.

Would 3F help with more reliable ignition?

I'm not too keen on storing BP, and I'd prefer to use something that cleans easily, fouls the least, and smokes the least. Although it would be somewhat cool to smoke out the range once in a while!

flounder: What is the difference in your opinion or experience? Is Pyrodex not as reliable either (compared to BP)?

3F Pyrodex is pretty reliable in a sidelock. T7 not quite as much. BO of course is the most reliable.

The ROA will shoot any sub except BH 209.

BO = BP?

BH 209 won't work well at all with caps will it?

Would it be bad practice to use a 5 grn starter of 3F Pyrodex/sub under 3F 777 (or any variation of powders)?

What makes subs, especially 777, less reliable? Is there a way to remedy this? And what exactly is less reliable (ignition, hang fire)?

Subs have a higher temp to ignite them. Not a problem with inline guns shooting 209 primers, but can be a problem with sidelocks shooting percussion caps.
3F of subs will work better in sidelocks as far as reliability is concerns, because of the smaller granules. It also buns a bit cleaner and more complete than 2F.

If you're going to prime a load for easier ignition. You should use real black powder. It has the lowest temp to ignite it. I've never done it, so don't believe it's needed. Keeping everything clean and clear should be enough for caplocks. I like Remington #11 caps for rifles, and Rem #10 for revolver/pistols. Everybody has their own opinion on this, but it's what has given me the best luck. I used to shoot CAS, and couldn't afford misfires.

If you were shooting a flintlock. You'd have to use BP for reliability. That shows you how close to failure you are with subs in a caplock. It will work, but you have to make sure everything is right.

I notice that Traditions gives a max load for their Deerhunter as 110 2F/105 3F. Not that they are the same rifle, though they seem quite similar, but I find it odd that Lyman's gives 110 also for 2F, but 90 for 3F. Are they just being cautious?

Yes, they're being cautious. You might not like the recoil and accuracy if you beyond that anyway.

What kind of a load is similar to a 12 ga dove load? That and a 270 Win are the higher end that I'm familiar with.

Since accuracy is as important as horsepower for hunting I'm certain I'll not be near max loads.

With a max load like our talking about, and the conicals you just mentioned in your other thread.

About like a H&H .375 mag. Maybe more.

Not really needed. I'll be shooting a 250 gr bullet with 80 gr of BH 209 for elk this year.

Last year I killed a cow elk with a .54 round ball and 80 gr of Swiss black powder.

I like to get close though. To me that's part of hunting, but especially ML hunting. (for me)

I'm curious if you have an idea as to how much power you are getting from that load you have used for elk.

I've had elk once, and given a chance to hunt them I'd have to give it a go if I could figure out how to pack it back out! Best tasting critter I've had. Right up there with axis.

I'm curious if you have an idea as to how much power you are getting from that load you have used for elk.

I've had elk once, and given a chance to hunt them I'd have to give it a go if I could figure out how to pack it back out! Best tasting critter I've had. Right up there with axis.

What would you compare the recoil of your load to?
A 375 H&H is probably more than I'd care for.

That is all I use in my sidelocks and even percussion inlines. But you need to use #11 Mag caps. With a sidelock you need to tap the 3f powder over under the nipple in really cold weather.

I shoot 90 grains of t7-3f in my LRH with a 460 grain lead Bull Shop, i also use a shot card under the bulet to keep the T7 from melting the bottom of the bullet. It is a sharp recoil but something less that the 300 win mag and mybe comparable to a Tikka Light 270 win.

"BINGO" :happy0001::happy0001::happy0001::happy0001:

I was using a heavy sidelock. That will help with recoil. The GPH you mentioned will ne lighter on recoil than the Deer Stalker, but you have to carry the weight for the whole hunt too. Maybe the recoil would be easier. You can wear a shoulder recoil pad. The old style curved steel butt plates are not kind on recoil, but do support the gun better for offhand shots. If it doesn't bother you. You could grind the stock flat and install a recoil pad. (gulp!)

Also, real black powder has the softest recoil. More of a push than a sharp punch. T7 has a sharper recoil than Pyrodex. AAP has a softer recoil, but I don't feel it's very consistent in fps which hurts accuracy.

So, your rifle, powder and bullet choice will determine the recoil. Those big lead conicals will wake you up, but you only feel it for a little while. :)

I forgot to mention. I have a torn up shoulder, and a very sensitive cheek from an operation. Plus, i'll be 70 this year.

I'd still rather shoot a muzzleloader. Recoil be damned!

sabot: What twist is your barrel? I'm guessing it's faster than 48?

Muley: I keep coming back to the Deerstalker, though I'm strongly considering the Country Hunter due to the faster twist since I would like to be able to use sabots. And I haven't exactly discounted the Deerhunter. I like the more modern stock and fiber optic sights.
I'm fairly stuck on a handy compact rifle, though I keep looking at Lyman's Trade Rifle for the increase in velocity. Is the increase even enough to consider it worthwhile?
The recoil isn't a great big deal, especially if it's only 1! Can always practice with a milder load I suppose. I never even notice when I shoot a deer with a 270 Win.

What was the original 45-70 load? Muzzle velocity? 70 grns (2F or 3?) under what?

The 45/70 used pretty heavy bullets. It had some wallop! More efficient in a cartridge too.

The Lyman Deerstalker is an excellent choice for a hunting gun. It won't do well with sabots though, but there's lots of other bullets to choose from.

I like it better than inlines. Real wood and a sidelock. What's not to like? :biggrin:

sabot: That's a real monster load! There's not been a pig big enough around here that I'm aware of that would require something like that. That's what I would call loaded for bear!
I tried looking at Bull Shop bullets noticing the one you listed must have a fair BC, but the site isn't working right.

I must agree that they do have a grand flair!
What little I find in modern bullets is mainly Hornady FPB's and Powerbelts, of which I'd try out the FPB's first. It seems they get much better velocity. I'm guessing it's a better seal?

I probably should have added that most folks shot the same bullet with 70-80 grains of powder. It just worked out that 90 gave me batter accuracy.... That target was from a 1-28 twist sidelock barrel, but I have shot them from one of my 1-48 Renegades also.

You are correct on-line Bullshop is pretty much shut down. Dave at No-Excuse Bullets build almost the same thing. He migh have BC listed there.

http://muzzleloading-bullets.com/ind...es/Page319.htm

Big 6x6 computed it once shooting it through to chronos - .202

So the next leading question? Are you looking only at full lead conicals? What twist rate is your rifle.

I think I saw you were possibly looking at a sidelock of some sort - does that mean you have rulled out and inline?

I know dumb questions but just wondering...

I am interested in a sidelock at the moment, though I may get an inline some day. The twist on Lyman's and Tradition's is 1:48" and Pedersoli's is 1:34".

I'm more interested in Hornady's FPB's. But A Powerbelt will work if they won't. I'm not familiar with any other makers of full bore bullets.

I am a bit interested in lead conicals too. If I get into casting for my ROA then I'll eventually cast for the rifle too.

Remember Lyman (which is a good gun) also offers a hunter barrel for the Great Plains that is 1-32...

I mentioned the GPH, but he wants a more compact gun.

He really should consider an inline. As much as I hate to say it.

I'm looking at it too, but just feel a 50" OAL and 9 lbs is quite a bit to haul around the woods all weekend.
Why does it get 2 wedges whereas their other 2 rifles get 1?

The GP is the top of their line and is the closet thing to a replica as you may get in a modern ML.

But it still comes down to what you might want to get and the function that you want it to do. I am not sure that you are going to like loading a FPB either.

As another thought I have shot a lot of sabots from a 1-48 and in 50 cal there is a ton of bullet out there to shoot. You will typically have stay with the shorter projectiles from a 1-48.

Power Belts will definitely shoot from a 1-48 - just not sure you will always like the results - accuracy great - terminal ballistics questionable sometimes.

Why might I not like loading an FPB?

So lighter 44/45 bullets may work OK in sabots from a 1:48" twist?

I see Powerbelts don't have as good of a BC as FPB's and noticed on Hogdgon's site they were roughly 100 fps slower in similar weight. I'm assuming they don't seal the bore as well?

I do really like the GPH, but for a little guy like myself that's a lot of rifle. Were it a devoted blind gun or such...
I just feel that a more compact rifle (even a Trade Rifle/Hawken) would allow for more styles of hunting. And I don't have a lease where I can stick a blind.

Two wedges, because that's how the original Hawkens had them. Due to long barrels.