The devil's advocate
 

The topic I want to discuss is Blackhorn 209 powder. In a brief summery, I have went through three pounds of the 10 oz bottles of BlackHorn 209. I found the powder;

1. easy to ignite with the correct primer and breech plug
2. really enjoyed the no swabbing while shooting
3. very accurate with most of the bullets I tried it with.
4. did not find any storage problems (although it did not last long)
5. very powerful it seemed

I also found;

A. after shooting I hated the fact I could not give the rifle a water bath. Instead I cleaned with solvents and alcohol and finally with some commercial cleaners to insure the rifle was perfect before being stored.
B. ruined two breech plugs (blew the face off my knight disc breech plugs, chipping them so bad I was worried about using them any more.
C. never knew you had to drill the carbon out of the breech plugs
D. 10 oz of powder to me is a long afternoon
E. The cost of the powder. One store was $28.00 and the other was $32.00. Gander Mountain (where I looked last week) was $34.00
F. What extra power the powder had could easily be matched with other powder like Triple Seven and even Black Powder.

Last week I was at Gander Mountain buying out the muzzleloader section of the store. And there on the shelf was Black Horn 209. I grabbed up two bottles and set them in my cart. Then I realized those two bottle were going to cost me $68.00 plus tax. The cheap side of me suddenly surfaced, and told me.. you don't need this powder. All it is to you is something to play with and you have lots of powder at the house. So I put the powder back (even though I was wearing my Blackhorn 209 hat at the time).

So my question is. many have had a chance to try the powder. What makes this powder any better then say Triple Seven at $21.00 a pound, or Pyrodex RS at $15.00 a pound, or black powder at $13.00 a pound? Is the swabbing that important to you? Is the extra power that big of a factor? Is this powder more accurate then any other powder you have tried in the past? Do you have to scrape carbon out of your breech plugs? Use solvent to clean the rifle? I want to know... what makes this powder so special or not so special to you.

I use it for these reasons. Keep in mind i'm a hunter, and don't spend much time at the range. Once I have a load worked out. I don't change it.

No crud ring. That's a huge advantage to me for hunting.

No lube needed on BP threads.

More accurate than T7

Doesn't attract any moisture. Which makes the powder good to the last load in the bottle. No worries hunting in the rain either.

The most consistent powder I can use in a ML.

Recoil seems less that T7.

For me, the price is cheaper than T7. $27 delivered from Carlos. It cost me $24.95 plus tax for T7 and $12 for gas to drive to the gun shop.

For me, It beats T7 in every way. All the other subs and BP aren't even in the running.

I will start this off by saying - I think BH-209 is the best ML substitute powder available on the market! Do I use it? on occasion while testing only. I have 22 bottles of it but still resist shooting it because of price and I got these on sale at Cabelas for $20. I do not shoot it that much because I know I will not use it for hunting

It appears to have more convience - it is easier to use and less corrosive than T7

Again convienence and a lot less corrosive


For some it really is - for me it is not a factor. I do not need to run a patch while hunting - I can easily get off 3-4 shots before I feel the adverse effects of the 'crud ring'. While at the range i do patch because that keeps the bore in the same condition it will be in while hunting - semi-fouled.

It really is not that much more powerful grain for grain than T7 or Swiss until you get to the heavier bullets them you may gain up to 150 fps more with BH. So again for power is not a factor.

For me it is very accurate is it that much more accurate than T7 - I do not see it. BUT... if I were shooting paper for money it is my feeling right now I would use BH - the granuales are much more consistent in size and weight.

At some point, even with a 5/32" flame channel you will need to clean the channel.

[quote] Use solvent to clean the rifle?[quote]

I believe that using BH necessitates the use of a solvent of some type - for me Hoppes is not the one. I have gone to using a gun scrubber type solution.

Just my thoughts. It is not a special powder to me because I can use T7 and get everything I need at much less expense, even when you add in the cost of using patches...

But I do like the powder.

To me as a hunting powder, shot from an inline muzzleloader, it is excellent. Easy reloading, very consistent, no need to clean immediately after shooting (usually hunt on fouled barrel for the week). Great if your traveling to hunt, because even cleaning with solvent is easier on the road, than with water.

But, I also shoot Goex in my inline, because its is cheaper and just as accurate.

I can see the advantages, but I don't use it. Only one of my muzzy's will shoot it consistently without getting a modified breech plug. Swabbing is not a big deal for me- like sabotloader I can get off 2 or 3 shots in the field without noticing problems with the crud ring. In all of the testing I've seen, BH is not more powerful than T7 except with heavy bullets or at very stout powder charges (130 grains and up). I have not noticed corrosion issues with T7 - I have left muzzy's uncleaned after shooting T7 for 24-36 hours with no rust issues. I have not noticed storage issues either (and I live in a relatively damp climate) - after opening a jar, I just throw a packet of silica gel in and make sure the lid is closed tight. I just shot out of a jar of T7 that had been opened 4 years ago and it shot just fine and was still very accurate.

As far as price, I've never seen BH in my area for anything less than $32 for 10 oz. T7 is around $24 regular price, sometimes I can get it on sale for $18 - $20. Granted I haven't been shooting a whole bunch the last 3 years or so, mostly just for hunting, so price isn't a huge issue for me.

I think BH is a great powder that has both advantages and disadvantages - it is up to the individual to decide what is most important for them.

Like you Cayugad, I could easily shoot enough shots in an afternoon's shooting session to use up most of a canister of Blackhorn. So price is my main and only real issue with the stuff.

In my Omega X7 with 250 grain Deep Curls I get about the same velocity and accuracy with charges of 80 grains Blackhorn or 95 grains GOEX FFFg. With those loads I get about the same number of shots from ten ounces of BH as I get from a pound of GOEX. Yet the BH costs over twice as much.

So the only issue I've ever had with BH is cost. I firmly believe that it's a rip off - even at $27 a canister. My favorite comparison is that IMR came out with Trail Boss powder for cowboy action shooters a year or two before Hodgdon came out with Blackhorn. A canister of Trail Boss runs about $12. I wonder what the real mark up is on Blackhorn?

As for other factors, no swabbing with BH is nice. But swabbing has never been a big issue for me. Barrel clean up with either powder is about the same using pure alcohol for BH and water for GOEX, but breech plug clean up with GOEX is a little easier. Not enough to get excited about though.

All in all, I don't shoot my inlines nearly as much as my sidelocks. So using BH in the X7 and Mustang isn't going to break me. But DANG IT, I still feel like I'm being ripped off every time I pull the trigger with it. But then, I feel like I'm being ripped off every time I pay my cable bill also.

Let me add this for those who don't know about it.


Ed's Gun Shop
5560 US 1 HWY
Vass, NC 28394
(910) 692-7936
(910) 692-4867 fax

[i]Hours:
M - F - 9am - 6pm
Sat - 9am - 5pm
Sun - Closed
PLEASE WHEN YOU CALL ASK FOR CARLOS. I HANDLE ALL THE MUZZLE LOADING ACCESSORIES AND GUNS.
I'M USUALLY THERE EVERYDAY EXCEPT ON WEDS. WHICH IS MY DAY OFF. SO IF YOU NEED ANYTHING AT ALL CALL EITHER AT THE NUMBER LISTED ABOVE OR MY CELL 910-995-2660.


Ed's Gun Shop will now be a supplier for the highly in demand Blackhorn209 Powder made by Western Powders. They will be offering it at a price of $27 SHIPPED to your door! You'll never find it this cheap and if you do, you most likely had to make quite a drive to your nearest Cabelas sporting goods store. And hope that they still have a can or two in stock. No more having to worry! At $27 Shipped, this is a steal for this powder. How can they sell is so cheap while others are charging $30 a can + a $20 hazmat fee? Who knows! But it will now be available at an amazing price from a great business that can sell you everything from Powder, Primers, Bullets, Scopes, Scope Mounts, What ever you need, they may just have it in stock.

Consistency, accuracy, no swabbing between shots, no crud ring, bullets load easily, either measure by volume or weight because the powder itself is the same consistant size, clean up time is at a minimal when using Hoppe's #9.
There's 7 reasons

Reasons stolen from another but, all the same reasons, i use it!! I never have had an issue with my breach plug, either. i let it soak in T17 while i clean the gun and then just a little cleaning with a brush and she is good. the ONLY negative i can come up with is price and even that is reasonable to me for what i get.

I don't use it, but I think I'd like it if I was to try it. For me the main reason I don't use it is the gun I use can't fire it. The gun I previously used could and I kept saying I was going to try it in it, but then I'd talk my self out of it. It's not so much the cost, but trying something new I think. I know I'm the opposite of most guys on here, but I really like pellets better in the field that loose powder. I like to shoot loose powder at the range though to save money. This is one of the reasons I haven't tried it, and the other one being that the Pyrodex just shoots soo well for me, I've not had a big reason to change.

I don't mind swabbing between shots, so that part doesn't bother me. The thing I think is so much better about BH209 is that it's not as corrosive so if I don't get it cleaned right away after shooting it's not a big deal.

I think once I tried BH209, I'd probably be addicted, but I've just kept talking myself out of trying it so far, and now that I'm using a gun that can't shoot it, I really have no reason to try it. If I get another muzzle loader in the future, which I'm sure I will, I may try it out.

I still have some left of a 10 oz. container I purchased a couple years ago.
I admit I am a cheapskate and that is probably the main reason I didn't shoot it more. The rifle I shot it out of was my disc elite. I was using the red jackets at the time and I spend a lot of time trying to get the breech area of that rifle spotless after shooting. I know the Lehigh breech plug solves that issue.
The powder was consistent, I had no problems with ignition and accuracy was great. As far as swabbing goes, I wait a while between shots when target shooting so I might as well be swabbing as standing there with my finger up my rear.
I sold my disc elite so all I have left are my Whites and my mk-85's and I prefer not to use it in them.
Overall, its a good powder for those who are set up to use it but it is just not for me.

I am only about 4 years into muzzleloading. I have only one gun, an Omega X7. I get to the range maybe once every other week outside of hunting season. So I shoot much less than some, but quite a bit more than the "sight in once a year before the season" crowd.

BH209 is all I've ever used so I can't easily compare it to the other subs or true black powder. I do like the not swabbing and consistency of measuring/loading.

The main thing I like about the powder is its relative non-corrosiveness. Often, after getting back home from sneaking out to the range (or a hunt), life takes over and I'm dealing with my kids. Next thing I know, three days have passed and I have not yet gotten to cleaning my gun. Never had a corrosion problem. Even without trying the other subs, I am pretty sure I would regret not immediately cleaning my ML after a shoot.

Well to each his own.
I spend 500 to a 1,000 dollars on a gun I spend time and money getting it set up so it will do what I expect when I do all that I just am not going to shoot any powder but what I like best in that gun, I just think that after getting the best of every thing else in my opinion it pretty cheesy to quibble over a few dollars difference.
And I have yet to have any experienced person that I had respect for tell me something else was better.
What other powder will give 2300 fps + with the same pressure that a 120 grain load of 777 produces? What other powder can you shoot all day and will maintain accuracy with out any swabbing or cleaning? When I used 777 I spent more of my shooting day cleaning out crud ring than all of the rest of the day put together, its is worth the difference in price just by it self for that not to mention getting fine accuracy with loads in a FPS range I could not get with reasonable pressure with any other powder.
Every body has the right to choose its still a free country, I am glad to see some people use Pyrodex and Black we need to keep them in business so we have powder for our Traditional guns they are fun to shoot to. I sincerely wish something as good or better than Blackhorn would come on the market as improvements come from competition but so far I see nothing that even is in the ballpark.

Why I have not even tried BH209 (or T7 or pellets or ...)

1. Swiss is my powder of choice and it is too expensive most of the time, so I use GOEX. I learned to shoot with Gearhart-Owen.

2. I don't hunt primitive seasons, I am a primitive, neo-luddite hunter.

3. I like the smell of rotten eggs.

4. Swabbing between shots slows things down; makes shooting a couple of groups an afternoon afair.

5. BH209 or pellets look stupid in a flintlock pan.

P.S. Bless me father for I have sinned, I have used a couple of pounds of Pyrodex.

You make some very good points Lee. I forgot to mention in my post that I mainly shoot conicals so my powder loads are very moderate in comparison to yours. The heavy loads that you shoot would cause a lot of barrel leading for me unless I started paper patching.

$27 shipped from Carlos. Most likely a better deal than can be found in any store.

Some very good answers. And in all honesty, about what I expected. As for that deal from Carlos.. that is a good deal. Especially if they pay the shipping. But does that powder require a hazmat fee?

Simple answer. Buy a 5# cannister. They are a good bit less. And your local dealer should not have any problem getting it for you. Do you have a local guy that treats you fairly??

And you don't have to shoot it for your fun shoiting. I agree with you on that. I use straight black powder for that. a 5# cannister should last for awhile if you are just using it for targeting your hunting rifle, and hunting with the powder. Tom.

Tom, i am not sure that it is available in 5# containers (BH that is)

OK Semi answered that one - just never seen on any sites - course I was not looking for it either...

Maybe one of you guys who knows Carlos should see what kind of deal he can make on the 5 lbs.

The Midway USA base price is $220. They don't say if that's a single canister or a case of 8 10 oz. canisters.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/173...ubstitute-5-lb

Yes it is definitely available in a 5# cannister. I have one on the way. My local dealer said he could get me one for $174. He said it would take about 3 weeks to get it. He buys from a large powder distributor who travels through our area once a month. And that distributor needs a lead time for all special orders.

I bought two 5# cannister's of Trail Boss last month. I am stocking up heavy on powder. I believe powder is going to really get dificult and expensive to buy in the near future. That is because I think Obama is going to get re-elected. So I have been hoarding components. I might even call him back and add a second 5# cannister of BH-209. It stores well. Tom.

Powder Valley sells the 5# can for 176 if you get 4 then Hazmat and all it comes to 724. Thats 20 pounds ought to last all year.

If you are going to buy from Powder Valley then it is best to wait for their 10% programs. They run a few throughout the year. 10% off the entire order. There will probably be one around Thanksgiving time. The last one was the fourth of July(that I know of).

It is best to plan your component purchases. You can save some big bucks if you do. Tom.

Why would you do that? If you buy 5 pounds from Carlos, it will cost you $137 TYD.

Muley you might want to re-check your math. Tom.

You must mean you get 5 actual pounds. Not Western Powders version. Ok, that's different. I think of 5 pounds as 5 bottles. That used to work before BH came along to screw us. They didn't have the guts to put it in a smaller bottle.

I have used BH in all my guns no problem at the range. I also have seperate breech plugs for each gun marked for BH use only. I am first a bow hunter but the smoke poles come out a few days a year. So shooting is done for fun and swabbing is not a issue. My hunting loads used in all my guns is 777 loose-dont have to worry about ignition problems(which no one brought up). One powder that had a very nice write up in PETERSON'S was Alliant Black MZ. Once i find some i will be testing it soon. I was wondering if anyone else read the article.

Does Carlo's TYD price include hazmat? If it does I could see getting several pounds to play with.

Dave that is the total to your door - I am not sure how the HazMat is being handled. But he must have found a loop hole...

hazmat fee is built into his TYD fee. He ordered 500lbs the last time he ordered. He goes through it pretty quick.

Well I am going to have to call that man tomorrow.

Yep, it almost seems to good to be true. I read a post from him one time saying that lots of people ask him about the Hazmat and that it is paid, but that they just pay it. I wonder what the cost on that powder is if you order it in the quantities he is. It's got to be super low if he is able to pay the hazmat and sell it for that shipped.

It does seem strange, A HazMat fee has to be paid on every order. Even it's just one bottle. How can they cover a $20-$25 fee plus shipping on such small orders?

I'm not looking a gift horse in the mouth. I'm just baffled about how they do it.

Most powder houses will give you free shipping and HazMat if you buy a case of powder. That makes sense. There's enough profit in selling a case, but just 1 bottle?

I don't know how he does it. And it really does not matter to me. I bought two cannisters from him, and they were the price quoted. And I receivd them so that is good enough for me.

There is one thing we need to remember. The dealers and distributors charge us $15, $20. or even $25 for a Hazmat fee. Some even waive that fee for certain orders. Some allow primers and powder in the same box. Some do not. However we have no idea how much UPS actually charges the dealer or wholesaler for that fee. And what volume discounts they may receive. And the fact of whether they even pay it at all. We just simply don't know. Or at least I know I don't know.

All I know for sure is they charge me. And I know they rip me off all the time. So I would believe about anything. Tom.

That's true. We don't know who is charged what.

Except when it's me being charged. :(

Ya you are right. That is all we can know for sure. Tom.

What caused that to happen, simply due to the increased pressure of the Blackhorn powder?

It also appears that Blackhorn causes some additional erosion in a similar fashion to what happens to the vent liner of the Savage rifles due to firing smokeless powder.
I've read about the experimentation with vent liners due to using Blackhorn. But most folks don't have the equipment to create breech plugs with replaceable vent liners. That seems to mean that instead of simply replacing a nipple at a cost of a few dollars for conventional muzzle loaders, an entire breech plug would need to be replaced at a greater cost. Am I understanding that correctly that planning for breech plug replacement is necessary if using Blackhorn powder?

This doesn't seem to be the case with other substitute powders, or is it if heavy loads are fired with heavy bullets often enough with the other subs too?
Would it be fair to say that there's a trade off if using Blackhorn, that instead of swabbing between shots a person would need to regularly buy a replacement breech plug, or to make a new vent liner if they have the ability to make them?
I've heard of buying expensive platinum lined nipples for those who fire long range muzzle loaders in competition due to the heavy gas cutting associated with shooting black powder such as Swiss. But I can't recall as much talk about breech plug replacement or damage until Blackhorn appeared on the market, except for maybe when the smokeless Savage rifle was being discussed.

Are guys compressing BH 209 when they are loading it ?

This is only a guess mind you. The Knight Original Disc I shoot used the orange primer jackets. As some understand, the old orange primer jackets just sit up against the face of the breech plug. Unlike the red Knight primer jackets that almost attach to the shape of the breech plug. Here is what I suspect.. As the primer was ignited in the jacket, the spark ignited the main charge, as designed. This Blackhorn main charge then pushed backward into the now closed bolt of the Knight Disc. So all this back pressure hit the orange disc (which became destroyed by the way) and was basically held there between the primer jacket and the face of the breech plug.

It was funny because the first plug looked like someone took a small chisel and knocked little dents and chips out of the breech plug face. And I threw the first breech plug away, because it would not consistently fire the rifle. Well I am guessing the fire channel was carbon coated and not letting the fire through. Which might have even increased the damage to the the breech plug face.

As the second breech plug started to encounter the same problem, I ran out of the Blackhorn 209. Now remember, I was shooting Blackhorn 209 before most people even knew it existed. It was something really new. I tried the powder in a number of different rifles. And discovered the hard way which rifles would not shoot Blackhorn safely.

I recently ordered five more canisters of Blackhorn from Ed's Gun Shop and so when it arrives I am going to put it through a battery of side by side tests with other powders and see if it really is IMO a better powder.

A couple of things to remember.
#1 The pressure is 15% less with the same load as 777.
#2 The higher velocity is due to peak pressure being maintained longer.
#3 This is a progressive burning powder which makes it different than 777 Pyrodex
and black powder.
#4 Some of the effects noticed are from the pressure being maintained longer not from higher pressure, this includes blowing the cap off open breach guns which is why you are advised not to use Blackhorn in them you could end up with the cap stuck in your eye or forehead.
#5 Because the powder is coated with a sealant retardant which keeps out moisture and partly controls burning speed it is harder to ignite, and a sealed ignition works best.

If the Savage BP's wear out from using smokeless powder. It stands to reason BH 209 will wear out BPs to, since it's just a detuned smokeless powder.

The question is how fast? Jon says he has 2500 loads through a CVA BP and it's still fine. That should be more than a lifetime of hunting for the average guy.

A CVA BH209 BP cost $20. Deduct what you don't have to spend swabbing the loads, and it comes out to a non issue.

Lets not be crying wolf here.