I agree, I have been shooting BH ever since it came out I like heavy loads more than most and I worn out one breach plug in the Triumph and it took about the same number of shots as wearing one out with 777. I change mine as soon as I find my group size changing. At that point I modified a BP and tested it I have been shooting modified BP ever since the only one I wore out was one I made I switched to Savage vent liners and the Lehigh but have not worn any commercially made vent liner. The one I made myself was a lot of work and not heat treated.

What it costs to swab a load means nothing to me. I am just not someone that finds having to swab a barrel between shots that big of a deal. Most the time I want the barrel to cool down anyway. I normally swab with dollar store window washer fluid, and cheap patches or an old T shirt. Hardly a large money item over the years. If I were really cheap, I could swab with simple tap water.

I am far more concerned with it burning up the face of the breech plugs. But I suspect with the new Lehigh Conversion in the Knight, and the Genesis with a full cover primer this will not be a problem. Also I really think having to drill out a breech plug as a PITA. But these are all things I am willing to suffer through to shoot the powder.

And I will make sure to use a tight fitting sabot and compress the powder charge. Thanks for that reminder.

I'm not sure how anybody shoots T7 without getting a crud ring? When I used T7, I had to swab every shot. I'm not sure where you got tap water in the field? I just used spit. I'm also not sure where you get all the t-shirts either. I buy patches, and if you figure out how many i'd use in the life of a breech plug swabbing T7. It would more than pay for a new BP.

I thought we were comparing BH to T7 for the average hunter? BH is no more expensive to shoot, and just plain works better.

This does not apply to someone who lives on the range. I thought this was a hunting forum? My comments and advice are always pointed to the hunter.

I'm not sure how anybody shoots T7 without getting a crud ring? You are correct. I get a crud ring also when I shoot Triple Seven for the most part. The only time I do not really is when I shoot my White rifles with conical bullets. I can shoot numerous times, without swabbing. Although, I have read a couple posts by forum members that report crud rings are not really a problem. Also I could shoot up to three shots even using Triple Seven. Although I would have to take into account the crud ring if it were there.

When I used T7, I had to swab every shot. I'm not sure where you got tap water in the field? In the field? I really worry very little about swabbing any rifle in the field. Normally I am there to shoot one game animal. And there for I am planning on one shot. If a second shot would be necessary, I could find enough spit and something to swab the bore with. Or I would hope this is a finishing off shot, and so I would load over the crud ring. If I were going to a hunt where there would be multiple shots, such as an all day prairie dog hunt.. I would carry patches and swab solution with me in my possible bag.

I just used spit. I'm also not sure where you get all the t-shirts either. I buy patches, and if you figure out how many i'd use in the life of a breech plug swabbing T7. It would more than pay for a new BP. The T shirts I use comes from home use. If one of my shirts gets too worn, torn, or small.. it goes to the patch bin. If I am in the big city, I once purchased two cotton sheets from one of those needy stores for .50 cents a sheet. Lots of patches that time.

I thought we were comparing BH to T7 for the average hunter? BH is no more expensive to shoot, and just plain works better. For the average hunter, BlackHorn 209 might be just fine, if they have the correct rifle that shoots it. In my case, I use multiple different rifles. Many of which can not shoot BlackHorn 209. So for me BlackHorn is a specialty powder. There for it is not cost effective. If I want cost effective, I shoot black powder. And I was just as interested in a target shooters observations with this question as I was the hunter. I meant no comment to be aimed specifically at you, as I respect the hunter's opinion just as much.

This does not apply to someone who lives on the range. I thought this was a hunting forum? My comments and advice are always pointed to the hunter. I was under the impression this was a muzzleloader shooters forum. Where all aspects of shooting a muzzleloader were discussed. That's why I will often post range results, bullet experiences, cleaning product reviews, powder questions, and breech plug discussions. And why I asked this question about Black Horn 209.

But I can understand if your comments are posted at the "hunter." If they owned a hunting rifle that shot BlackHorn 209, and shot only a few times a year, BlackHorn would be a very cost effective powder IMO.

Also, depending on the area of this country where you live, sometimes I am seeing that the cost of BlackHorn is very close to that of quality black powders or some of the substitutes. Here again, even if a target shooter, BlackHorn might be a very stable range powder also. But take for instance in my area. Gander Mountain wanted $34.00 for 10 ounces. Black powder, with shipping cost be $16.00 a pound. Much more cost effective for my needs. I will enjoy shooting the several pounds of Black Horn powder I just ordered. But I doubt it will ever make me leave the powders I currently use.

Dave, that is a well thought out, well written, and intelligent post right there.

I guess I do not understand the way some people are viewing this subject.
First off all of use that keep some Traditional or older inlines use some other powder in them, I keep black and Pyrodex around all the time, that has nothing to do with the horrors of 777 or the benefits of Blackhorn. I do believe that from the people on here who I TRUST that we experience different levels of problems from 777. Those of us who experienced the worst level have a hard wide ring right above where the bullet sit and it takes 5 minutes or more to get it out with what ever you use I tried everything I could think of and everything that was suggested. Now Pyrodex and black have never been a problem to me I clean them and think nothing of it.
I also believe that some of the people that have lessor problems with 777 do not understand the problems some of us have experienced.
As for the cost of Blackhorn I buy in quantity because I shoot it a lot and my cost runs from 22 to 27 dollars depending on where and how much it recently took a drop when the #5 actual pound containers came out. If I bought in the local gun store it would cost me 32 dollars and by buying in quantity my BH price over laps the 23 dollar cost of 777. If you chose to buy the local way it is high.
I guess my opinion is every one should use what works best in the gun they are shooting for them and not complain.

I don't understand the crud ring I used to get either. I couldn't even get a second shot down. Too much of a pain in the field. It's not that I ever needed a quick second shot, but after killing game. I'm more comfortable with a loaded rifle. We have bears and mountain lions coming out out ears here. I prefer to not have to do any swabbing at all in the field. I don't want to carry patches. Especially dirty patches.

Everything I do is aimed at hunting. I hate the range with a passion. I only go there to make my hunting more accurate.

Hunting with real BP is not a problem. I can get 2-3 shots with no swabbing, and I have a bag with me to clean if needed. It's a different kind of hunting though. More relaxed and traditional.

Hunting with an inline is different for me. It's modern ML hunting, and i'll use every modern method available. BH 209 fits right into that.

I could not agree more, that everyone should use what works for them and makes them happy. That's one reason I am willing (and the cost is right) to give BlackHorn another try with some of the rifle. Funny part was, I called there to purchase a Optima thumbhole stainless steel rifle, but the last one was sold (thank goodness) so all I ended up with was the powder.

I've never really thought it was so bad that a person "had" to swab between each shot. Maybe at the target range to get really tight groups? My uncle, father in law and brother in law all shoot t7 or pyro and they will shoot up to 6 shoots without swabbing. Now maybe there accuracy isn't the greatest out there but I know shot number 1 through 3 are right in there. I couldn't even imagine being out hunting and thinking that I had to swab my bore after the first shot to shoot a second one. As a matter of fact my brother in law shoot a deer using pyro, handed me the gun and I loaded it up and shot a deer with it that evening. Don't get me wrong I don't use anything else besides bh209 but I just think it is a all around better powder.

Pyro is friendly. I loaded 25 shots one day with no swabbing. T7 was a nightmare for me in the gun I was using at the time. I took one shot in the field, and couldn't get the 2nd shot all the way down. I went home and threw away the T7 I had. I'll never buy it again.

If BH 209 went off the market. I'd use Pyro. If that went off the market.

I'd shoot a 30-06. :biggrin:

Thats pretty bad then with t7. That's all my uncle and father in law shoot out of their omegas now. My brother in law still uses pyro though. I'm thinking about going smokeless and forgetting about all of it lol.

You are if you're using BH 209. :biggrin:

Not quite the same thing. Maybe close though..

I've thought about going back to CF about a thousand times. Especially, when i'm shooting a ML during the regular rifle seasons.

Probably won't though. I like blowing clouds of smoke.

Muley Hunter, I know what you mean about smoke. When I was shooting the flintlock today, because of the cold weather and humidity in the air, when the rifle would go off and release the black powder charge.. it was incredible to watch the smoke cloud in front of the shooting bench. Why I enjoy that I do not know.

I think its a peacefull thing Dave

You'll like this if you like smoke. When I used to shoot in CAS. I considered myself as one of the Warthogs. The goal of a Warthog is to use max loads, and make as much smoke as possible.

This isn't me, but my load and smoke looked the same.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq42c...eature=related

I have never used any BH before. I hear that BH is not compatable with some muzzleloaders. My question is this I have 4 inlines, rem m700, optima elite, optima, and a White rifle, will any of these rifles shoot Bh well? The rem and white are #11 caps.

I can only comment on the Optimas. They will shoot BH fine if you have a nice tight fit on the primer. You can also buy a BH 209 Breech Plug from CVA.

Primer choice is important with the stock BP. Not so important with the BH BP plug. Any normal 209 primer will work with it.

Those would be a no go for BH209.

You know, I never really knew what the crud ring really was until this year. For the first 5 years I used a muzzy, I just had a .45 cal CVA Hunterbolt. Always shot loose T7, and never got the "true" crud ring. I mean the gun would get a little more difficult to load after 3 or 4 shots with no swabbing, and accuracy would suffer, but that was it. I can shoot 20 times with no swabbing easy.

Then I got a CVA Wolf and it was only slightly worse.

This year I picked up a Knight Vision and discovered for real what this crud ring is.

I think the design of each gun, as well as several other factors can make a big difference.

Not necessarily since Blackhorn can be ignited by a #11 cap along with a booster charge of another powder.

See the following thread posted by MountainDevil54:

Duplexing Blackhorn209

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/blac...ckhorn209.html

One of the best reasons is that you don't have to sift through a huge cloud of smoke to see your result, expecially when hunting. The velocity can't be matched by 777 or pyro IMO.

I was under the impression that velocities could be matched with Triple Seven. BlackHorn's advantage being with heavier projectiles it out performs in the velocity department. And also.. is 100 or 200 fps going to break the bank? Maybe on some ways a certain bullet can perform its intended final act. But I've shot a lot of Triple Seven in my time and never worried about power. Although you might be right, as I do not own a chronograph. That is one final step in this sport I have not made.

As for duplex loading BlackHorn 209.. its not the fact it would make it go off that concerns me. Its the fact in example; Greg shoots a White Rifle and a Remington 700 rifle with #11 caps. This has an exposed breech. I would not feel right to encourage anyone with an open breech to "make" Blackhorn go off. If BlackHorn was able to bury a chunk of 209 primer into my forehead from a Black Diamond.. I sure would not want that small copper #11 cap exploding from the back pressure in front of my face. This is just my opinion and I could be over cautious. Also there would be a reason why the manufacturer does not promote the use of their product in open breech design rifles as well.

The velocities are so close to the same with loads under 110gr as to make no difference. Above 110 the heavier bullets show a noticeable increase right away and when I get to about 135 gr where the lighter bullets develop the pressure to burn BH [a progressive burn powder] then they leave 77 sharply behind.

what kind of velocities are you reaching with those charges Lee? And what rifle do you use?

cayugad,

Really good thread you have going here.

I would not consider a orange or Red plastic jacket Knight plug a closed or sealed primer pocket plug like Western Powders Recommends. IMO

I did not know that the primer jackets were not recommended. Blackhorn 209 shot so well out of my Knight with the orange discs. BUT it shot even better out of my Genesis.

Look at the bottle and what they recommend, IMO they don't qualify. I do agree the red plastic jackets seems to work great in the new Knight plugs for sure.