mountaineer magic

In another thread the statement was made about the Saboted bullet or even a conical for that matter is ballistically superior to a round ball. Of course I think we all Have to agree on that but someone else in regards to round ball said basically that dead is dead( these are paraphrases) so I was thinking, do we want something ballistically superior or is something that is sufficient good enough. I personally think that should be determined by what we shoot and what we are hunting as well as personal preference. What do you guys prefer. A projectile that is sufficient or one that is superior ballistically.

EndeavorShooter

I think for most hunters and the range of most shots, a round ball is sufficient to get the job done and is all you need for all NA size game, ... so, to me the real question is are you a slow twist fan or do you like the fast twist of most inlines shooting a sabot and bullet....

builder459

I feel it boils down to personal preference in the end. the only RB i personally would feel comfortable with shooting is a .54 cal RB at 100 yds max.

falcon

Until elongated bullets came along folks had one choice of projectile, patched round ball and, in some cases, unpatched round ball. Few rifles of that era were of .50 caliber and larger. Lots of folks killed deer and bear using .45 and smaller round balls. Those folks were superb hunters who knew the limitations of their guns.

Hunters then were also very good trackers. The man who got me into muzzleloading in the early 1960s was 80 years old when i met him. "Uncle" Joe had always hunted with a muzzleloader. His favorite patched ball gun began life as a .40 caliber. It was "freshed out" to .45 sometime in the 1930s. Never met a man who could track like he could. Uncle" Joe hunted with a muzzleloader well into his 90s and died peacefully at age 97.

Put a patched round ball in the right place and it will do the job, so will all the other muzzleloader projectiles. Put any muzzleloader bullet in the wrong place and you have a problem.

i use what works well for me. Every hunter should use what works for them. It's just flat wonderful that folks have all these choices of bullets to shoot and argue over; it ain't always been that way.

sabotloader

chetmarks

Personally 'ballistically superior' is not what I am after otherwise I would not be shooting hollow points - I want a bullet that offers the best 'Terminal Performance' through the ranges that I might shoot - 10 yard to 200 yards.

This what I am after... if it makes sense to anyone other than myself....

Ethically I think:

The Hunting bullet should be the most lethal big game hunting bullet available.

The bullet design should allow the bullet to penetrate 2” to 3”, through bone or tissue, before it starts to expand the petals. After the bullet starts to expand, open it's petals or shed it petals, it should adversely affect all the surrounding internal organs. The combination between the expansion of the bullet and/or opening or release of the petals and the creation of hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that can be 13” to 15” long.

I believe that in most case the bullet should pass through the body providing a secondary exit hole for blood and debris. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow.

Those animals that don’t go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Using a bullet matching this description will normally result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot.

cayugad

Do I want the most superior projectile? Of course I do. But what is superior to one might not be superior to another. There is a new following of Speer Deep Curl, and Lehigh, Barnes, Parker, etc. But try and wrap your mind around how many deer were killed by a simple Hornady XTP. So does that make the XTP superior? Some would say no, but thousands of deer deer would disagree. Superior projectiles to me means.. you have confidence that it will get the job done.

As for the debate of the roundball VS the sabot. If the rifle is a good roundball shooter, and the ranges are not excessive, I have no problem at all shooting a roundball. As already said.. put that in the right spot and the ball will do the rest.

A question for many of you instead of a superior projectile... In past days, when our pioneer hunters used very basic muzzleloaders, many of there claim to fame was their ability to track what they shot. So my question is... what do you feel is your tracking ability? Are you a good tracker, average, poor, or terrible. What I mean is, can you track with absolutely no blood at all? How about a few drops of blood here and there? Do you need a good solid blood trail? Or are you one of them that has to see the animal basically drop? What tricks do you use when you track?

Semisane

Interesting topic Chet. I'll contribute my personal thoughts and practices with no expectation that anyone should share my view.

I like guns. I like muzzle loaders in particular. However, the last gun I purchased was a .357 Mag Marlin lever action which really tickles my fancy. I may even hunt with it a time or two next season. I own four other cartridge rifles. They are all single shots, which gives some insight into my hunting mentality. They are a .22 Long Rifle, a .22 Hornet, a 25-06, and a 45-70. I truly love those four. But I haven't hunted with the 25-06 or 45-70 in several years. The Hornet does see a little action each year for rabbits or maybe a crow or two (puff balls).

Now back to the original topic. How can I possibly argue with the "dead is dead" philosophy? I share it. Then again, I favor superior ballistics too. So I live in both camps - and do so quite comfortably.

For example, I definitely prefer balls for the .54 caliber over balls for the .50 caliber. I no longer hunt with the smaller ball even though I know for certain a .490 ball is perfectly sufficient for much of my hunting. So I'm going with superior ballistics when I make that choice. Yet I'm going with "sufficient" when I choose that .530 ball over a .452 Deep Curl.

On the evening of Friday, 11 November, I'll be at the hunting camp preparing for the Saturday morning deer season opener. I expect to have four guns in the truck - probably the .54 GP flinter, the .45 GM/LRH Renegade, the .58 GM/TC Hawken and the .50 Omega X7. I'll load each one and put them in the gun box behind the seat of my truck. Saturday morning I'll select one for the hunt. Right now I have no idea which one it will be. But whichever one it is, I'll likely use a different one for the Saturday evening hunt, and yet another one Sunday morning.

I don't claim any logic here. It's just what I like to do. All will be sufficient. Some will be ballistically superior. But I'll know each one's limitations and will happily hunt within them. By the way, my hunting buddies don't know I'm Semisane. They just look at me funny and call me Van.

HEAD0001

I like them both. Both have their purposes. So it depends on what youn want to do. And what you want to shoot. I would not put a conical in my flint locks. Even if they do shoot well. It is just not what I want to do. But when I am looking for best performance then I always take a hard look at the heavy conicals. They wil flat get it done. And at distance farther than most any of us hunt. Tom.

Muley Hunter

Being sufficient depends on the range you allow yourself to shoot. Up to 75 yds, a PRB is more than sufficient. It can kill out to at least 125 yds with good shot placement. Shot placement is the key.

So, more is involved in the equation than the killing power of the round. I think of using a PRB with open sights. With normal eyesight I believe a PRB is all a hunter needs. It will do all a hunter needs if he's up to taking the shot.

Now, when the range extends. Something more efficient needs to be used besides a PRB. That same more efficient round isn't needed at 75 yds. It's overkill.

Some like overkill. Some hunt deer with a .300 mag when a 30-30 will do fine. Except using a 30-30 means they'll have to be a better hunter by getting closer, and taking a more accurate shot.

If you shoot a sidelock. Good, but why not accept it's limitations? Instead of trying to turn it into an inline with modern power and ammo.

Just my opinion.

nchawkeye

Seems odd to me that a fellow would want to hunt with a flintlock and shoot saboted bullets...

I bought my first flintlock back in 1977, it was a custom made .45...Even at that age, I didn't want a production made flintlock simply because they didn't look like the originals...I got into this sport to learn how to use a gun like my ancesters used back in the 1770s...

For the next 20 some years I used that .45 for everything from deer to squirrels to turkeys...It was only when a black bear came within 35 yards of me that I decided I needed a larger caliber...Let me assure you that a .45 caliber round ball in front of 75grs of FFF Goex is plenty for our eastern deer...They go down just as well with one of these as they will with a broadhead, shotgun slug or even a saboted pistol bullet...A modern centerfire bullet will usually put them down a few yards closer with center lung shots, but I've never had a problem...

Since my flintlocks have deep cut rifling and have the slower twist for round balls I wouldn't consider using anything but a round ball for them...

As Cay mentioned, some want to see the deer go down and if that deer goes over 50 yards from the shot they thought the projectile didn't do it's job...Tracking is a combination of noticing details, having a little common sense and being very patient...That being said, I can't remember a deer running over 100 yards with a .45 or a .54 ball through it's lungs...Most fall within 75 yards, if you can't find a deer 75 yards from where you pulled the trigger you need to work on your shooting or your tracking...

That brings up another subject...When I pull the trigger on an animal I KNOW that I killed it...That's why I spend as long as it takes to recover that animal...I've done a lot of tracking for guests on our farms and some simply can't give you the facts on where the animal was, where they held and when we check their guns, where they are sighted in for...Nothing ticks me off more than to take a fellow hunting and having him take a shot at a deer, only to find out later that his gun isn't "on"...

Now, when it comes to projectiles for inlines, you guys have beat that horse to death, I'll withhold my thoughts...