What's Next?
 

Just looking For conversation I guess, but as I was looking around and thinking, I started to wonder what the next big thing in muzzleloaders will be? There hasn't been a new design lately. Rather companies are reworking old designs trying to improve them. Is there even anywhere else to go with design? The break action or bolt action seem to be what's selling right now. If you were going to tell a company what you wanted to see, what would it be? Something totally new? Different ways to rework a current design? Perhaps not a new design but some sort of improved shooting component?

My guess: powder. Given the advantages and disadvantages of BH209, I think some company will try to improve on it. Maybe Alliant will be that company.

I would like to see different cals for inlines. I understand that the 50 is the all around one, But it would be nice if TC would make a .45 or .52. Just something different then a 50. Its really hard to justify to buy another inline when they are all 50. Yes knight makes the .52 but it would be nice if some other company would step up. If TC would make a .52/.54 Triumph I would buy it in a heart beat.

I also believe powder will be the big one a powder that has the advantages of Blackhorn and the capability of being ignited in any muzzleloader even with #11 caps and a bit longer burning period with more potential energy but not any higher pressure.
It is with in the capabilities of present technology to do this in a none corrosive non residue powder.
There will probably also be a sabot that will handle the .457-8 400 grain bullets to make very large game practical with a muzzleloader.

I do believe that powders will be a new market. We are seeing it all the time as a new powder pops up claiming to be better. You might also see smokeless muzzleloaders start playing an important role. With the barrel advancement, I think more of them will start to appear. The other thing we are seeing and will get even more competitive is the design of bullets. Brass is a new market, Copper is getting too expensive to shoot, and one must consider the leaps we have made in the use of plastics.

I would prefer to see more variation in twists.I prefer 1:24 1:20or even 1:18 for my inlines and 1:70 or so for round ball .more 45 cal options would be nice also

I like you thinking Chetmarks.

I would like to see a reasonably priced underhammer model with fast twist, slow twist, and shotgun barrel options.

I would like to see more .45 cal rifles myself, along with more bullet choices for them. i am hoping Knight offers this next year, if there still in the rifle making business then.i really don't see T/C making a move to the .45,.52 or the .54 cal anytime soon.the demand just isn't there.i also agree the big changes will come in the powder end of it and not any new rifle designs. the break actions IMHO will continue to dominate the market for a lot of obvious reasons.. Ray

We will be testing a fast twist 45 before fall (At least i hope). 1/20 or 1/22 will be the goal. We hope to have it shooting both sabotless and saboted bullets.

I agree with Cayugad on this one. I think smokeless powder rifles are the next big thing. Guys are so hung up on saving 60 seconds and not wanting to clean their rifles. So any improvements to shorten the cleaning time are going to prosper. And this is also related to powder.

Personally I would like to see the states go back to traditional MZ's and do away with all the modernizations. After all the initial MZ season were called "primitive weapons" season. And I promise you my Knight LRH is anything but a "primitive weapon". Tom.

Grouse why the 1:20 again? that twist shoots big heavy lead excellent, but is so limited when it comes to saboted bullets.the 1:30 or even a 1:28 has a lot better selection of saboted bullets and the 1:30 shoots pure lead conicals in the 325-380 gr range lights out.i could see a 1:20 or 1:22 in limited runs. i just can't see a huge demand for them. Knight shot them selves in the foot once already with the 1:20 .45.cal.just curious and not trying to be negative.. Ray

If they do come out with a 45 in a 1:20 twist I'll take one for sure. One of the best twists for paper patch conicals.it would make a good companion for my 1:18 twist percussion.I think you could get it to shoot sabots also,if Dave manufactures one that is ballistically good for it. The failure of the 1:20 wasn't because of the twist but the lack of offering bullets to compliment that twist

I agree Chet. When Knight had the fast twist before they were too far ahead of the bullets that were availiable. These new brass bullets will be longer than lead bullets and should shoot great out of a 1 in 20 twist. And if the shooter wants to shoot conicals paper patched or not that would work good too.

I agree with powders. I personally would like to see a cleaner burning powder that can be reliably used in a flintlock ignition. There are so many substitutes out there but none that are reliable in the flinter.

If Knight brings out a 45 caliber with a 1in20 twist I have one question. Can I please send my Knight LRH(50 caliber) back to Knight and have it re-barreled with one of those 45 caliber barrels?? Please?? Pretty Please?? Pretty please with sugar on top??...............................

In a 45 caliber do you have any idea what the bore will be?? .450?? Or what?? Tom.

Everybody has opinions on this. My opinion is the sabots back then were not good enough. I think both MMP and Harvester can handle the twist. But again, that's why it takes lots of testing. I was told today a barrel is on the way. It could be a 1/24 50cal also.

The problem a gun company has with fast twist barrels is that only 5% of the muzzle loading population (like the guys here) have an understanding of how to make them shoot well. The average Joe is going to buy pre-packaged sets of bullets & sabots or Powerbelts and stick 150 grains of powder down their bore. When they get poor results they will be saying to everyone they know "that company's guns don't shoot well".

Your right about that. I just don't see any company going with the different twist. Even the different cals execpt for Knight either. The way the market is they all want a safe bet. Right know that is a .50 with a 1:24 twist. The powder maybe something that will happen. I know talking with Western Powders they were thinking about a powder for sidelocks like BH209 they just didn't have the money or the time to work on it. But he didn't say it was impossible.

Art , i think that's what i said lol. i also agree they shoot real big lead conicals real well also.Knight are great conical shooters, which i have found out since owning one:) Ray

X2 semi, which is why i said earlier i can maybe see knight making limited amounts of them not mass produce them.. a .45 cal 1:20 will shoot a .460 or .488 gr conical with excellent accuracy lol..Ray

I would like to see a gel propellant (sp)? little dab on the back of the sabot, ram it down, prime and pull trigger. no mess or swabing.

Next time I take the Rem 700ML .45 McGowen to the range I will fire off some groups with some 200gr SST's and BH209. I have a good feeling the 1:22 twist will produce some excellent accuracy. I have seen what a 1:20 twist Slufoot .45 will shoot.

smokeless powder rifles are already banned from some muzzleloader only seasons...I don't see them gaining more market share.

1-20 or 1-22 really only has issues with a 180gr. You have to lower the charge which i do anyway with 180s. That twist range is also popular for the 45/70 but its usually shooting heavier bullets too.

I did sent some 155gr and 185gr bullets to a guy on Dougs using a 1-22. They still shot within what most of us would consider really good. Most of his guns are highend customs so his opinion is based on bug holes groups.

IMO a 1-24 is the ideal "compromise" twist for a 45 to shoot big conicals and sabots. Knights shooting team used a 45cal 28" 1-18 during at least one of its 6 straight wins but they were using big lead.

45cal SML shooters swear by the 1-22 because it keeps the bullet stable at further ranges with 200gr 40s and upto 300gr+ sabotless but other companies have used 45 SML as slow as 1-32 without any issues shooting sabots. Guys more interested in sabotless the 1-18 but those can still shoot 200gr 40s in sabots.

Melvin Forbes, SMI and Del at MMP had no accuracy issues with the slow 1-32. At least Del and SMI have no problem with it and love thiers. Melvin wont build them anymore for safety concerns and only 5 were made. I WANT ONE OF THOSE 5!!!!!!! :D ...and i would gladly pay the original asking price for one.

Ive got the cash in hand if you know who owns one and would sell it. ;) or a 50cal that is cheap enough to convert to 45cal. I have the 45cal .450x.461 barrel blank coming this week that will handle at least 50K psi. Maybe not enough for most SML but plenty strong enough for even 150gr of BH209.

So the one million dollar question is........Is this a BH209/sub 45 only which is limited by fps or a SML quality barrel with the skies the limit? A 1-24 will do both easily in sabots and upto a 275gr sabotless or upto 400gr conicals. 120gr of BH209 in a fast twist can do some amazing things sabotless. Ive seen a specialty sized 350gr at 2000fps using only 84gr by weight of BH209 but it was in a 1-18 twist.

Busta shot some nice sabotless groups with one of his 1-20s using BH209 and at over 2200fps with a 250gr.

They cant use the excuse that Savage uses it because many other companies used a 1-24 including some old 50cal cartridge rounds like 50-110. The current GM 50-110 barrel is a 1-24 if you look in the online catalog.

My theory is a slightly slower 1-24 or maybe a 1-26 will be a tad easier on the sabots than a 1-22, handle lighter fun bullet loads better, should be fine with BH209 (even sabotless) and shoot the Leigh 200gr (or long bullets) a bit easier without having to push them as hard. A gain twist barrel is my dream barrel but costs are out of sight.

The next BIG step will be improvement in 40cal options which is under way right now. 220gr-240gr+ bullets are currently being tested but they are using hard copper with long ogives (for more BC) which is making the process a bit slow atm. IMO just a 40-220 to 230gr SST type bullet or upto a Barnes 220gr Expander MZ type would be the ticket even in current 45cal sub gunsl. Plus it would have huge potential for shooting in a 50x40.

A new bullet option or modifications to existing bullets would be the best first step IMO but take it slow. Start with one that works better in 45s and 50s in the majority of twists. A couple of us are still talking to Hawks about some ideas and i would like to talk to PR about maybe copper plating/bonded the current 40cals they offer.

A 45x41 cal sabot would be interesting too but it would only gain you 10grs and no better BC/SD since the 41cal pistol weights are very limited. Until the 45cal market picks up, i dont see any company making an effort to make a new sabot. The bullets and guns would need to come first. IMO very little would need to be done to make a better high performance sabot for 40cals in a 45 or 50cal but that tooling isnt cheap.

A 45x3XX sabot has some possibilities but the cost to keep them from drilling wont be cheap and a fast twist is nearly a must. Some shotgun slug sabots use a metal disk in the mold. There are many bullets besides the 357s that could make a huge BC improvement.

IMO sub powders have nearly reached there abilities with common sub twists and smokeless offers much more if you want over 2400 or 2500fps. Recoil is noticeably less too if you are using 1/3 to 1/2 as much powder as BH209 to reach the same fps. The best step for sub powders is reducing the cost to smokeless levels atm and Alliants new BlackMz has done that now.

I think there may be one aspect of the 45 thats being overlooked. Now I like 45's so don't get me wrong. The laws in a lot of places require 45 or larger and in some places larger calibers are required, some of us will not use conical if we can avoid it. Now we both know these laws are out dated and should be eliminated but that does not change anything and most law makers know nothing about muzzleloaders and the so called experts in firearms they refer to really only know about cartridge guns and are 50 years out of date on muzzleloaders.
Beyond this is another critical fact there just is not the right bullets and sabots that work well with that fast a twist so that also is bound to limit the market. I do believe the day will come when we will be ready for a 1 in 20 twist 45 but my personal belief is that it is about 4 or 5 years down the road.
On the other hand there are always the people who want a gun that they could take really big African game with and a 1 in 24 twist 50 might just be the intermediate twist that would handle the .458 heavy bullets like the 405 gr and the 450 and 500 gr which if it could also handle the regular bullets down to 250 gr would have a lot of interest and some good advertising points.

Lee

I am thinking that I would like to agree with a lot of what you have commented on, but you also have to realize that I live in one of those states that say the 45 is is minimum. It is a blanket rule to cover flintlocks and percussion gun... the inline just get caught in the blanket.

I am not sure what the optimum twist might be for shooting 40 cal bullets from a 45. I think we already tried the 1-20 twist and it did not work out the best, I know that I can shoot 40 cals from a 1-24 very well in fact really well. I am more inclined to believe the 1-24 might be the wiser investment.

Talking to Del (MMP) or even Ron (Harvester) - the 45 market is not there that would allow them to make any major changes in the 40-45 sabot. What ever they did would have to be able to work in all 45's.

Actually I really like hunting deer with the 45's that I have and if the truth be know the 1-30 twist that my Knights currently have work very well for me, not to say if Knight were to come out with a 1-24 twist (50 or 45) that I would not really be interested because i would. If they came with a 1-20 or 1-22, I would be more inclined to wait and see.

My Colorado Elk hunt next year i wanted to shoot a 200grn Lehigh at 2450fps and shoot an Elk. After reading the regulations i need to use a 50cal ML for Elk. That's no problem, just a bigger bullet.

The 1/24 twist 50cal from Knight is gonna happen sooner rather then later i believe.

See now that would make a happy camper:barmy:

Make it a BrushGun and i will be right inline behind you. :D

Make the twist on mine faster. I could care less about sabots. I want to shoot the heavy conicals. I think a 1 in 20 would be fantastic for big heavy conicals. And I think a top grade barrel in that twist would shoot big heavy conicals a long long long way----and do it very very very accurately. So who cares abuot sabots?? Not me.

I realize you guys are right. And the average Joe wants to shoot sabots.

But lets face it. Knight is a specialty company right now. Not a General Joe Public company. So maybe if they do cater to the guys who want specialty rifles it might help them?? Not hurt them?? I know I would buy a new one of those with that fast twsit barrel. And I have more MZ's than I will ever need. Tom.

Dang mike, i agree with all you said again! :) especially the .45 cal 1:30 comment, they shoot the 40 cal saboted bullet options out there very well and the 330-370 gr conical offerings excellent also.as i said earlier in this thread different twists in either .45 or .50 cal in limited amounts would be great, just can't see changing the existing twist.more .40 cal bullets options sure would be nice! Ray

I am content with my current setup, wouldn't spend the money to change...If I did make a change and felt I had to make longer shots, I'd contact the guys up in Greensboro that developed the Savage and have them make me one...Why keep fooling around with different powders when a smokeless gun will do all that needs to be done (if legal of course)...And...If new powders give similiar velocities as smokeless then how long will it be before game laws are changed???

In the past, 90% of my muzzleloader hunting has been done with flintlocks...I do own a Knight and shoot 80grs FFF Goex behind a .430 Hornady 300gr XTP...It's devastating and I'm good to 150 yards...I'm not fussy about how dirty a powder is or cleanup as I've shot black powder since the 70s and frankly don't understand why guys fuss about cleaning their guns...

I may be spending more time with the Knight as I've had cateract surgery the last month and I'm not sure I'll be able to see the rear sight anymore...

nchawkeye, the problem with smokeless guns is -

.......................................THEY DON'T MAKE SMOKE!

GOEX Forever!!!! :barmy: :s2: :s2: :s2: :s3:

True...I just can't understand all the hype about other powders that are easier to clean, makes no sense...

I'm saying, if I were going to improve on what my Knight does, I'd go smokeless...

Does Backhorn smoke??? Does it give higher velocities or is it just easier to clean???
Before paying what they want for that stuff, I'd go smokeless...

Get some of Docs old 45x40 350gr PowerStars in a 1-20 and just get them moving 1650fps. They may have some drop but it still has over 1000fpe at 250 yards. The conservative .312 BC does wonders for how fast is sheds fps even though it starts low.

It just all breaks down to how fast and heavy you want to shoot. I know of a guy on Dougs is using a sabotless 325gr and large amounts of BH209 and breaking 2200fps accurately in a 1-22 45cal. Plus at less PSI than nearly all SML sabotless and many saboted loads.

Busta was using a NEF 45 1-20, a 250gr FTX and 120gr or less of BH209 to get about 2200fps or more. His groups were pretty nice too. His saboted 200gr SST 40cal loads weren't bad either.

I really think something in between the very forgiving 1-28 and the 1-20 is the ticket. The 1-22 is well proven in Douglas, Mcgowen and Pacnor 45cal SML barrels. I dont see any reason it wont work with BH209 or other subs too. GM would likely even make them for less as long as they dont need to be SML rated. Their 45 blanks are rated plenty high enough for even 150gr of BH209 and a 350gr bullet.

A 45x40 350gr PowerStar type bullet in a sabot at 1800fps is very doable and is a near duplicate of the 350gr in a 45-110 or 40-90.

Well I wanted a new Knight but all they had to show me was bolt actions. What I would like is a drop or break action in a 1-24 twist with a 24 inch barrel. In other words a short but efficient [ with Blackhorn] rifle with light weight and good balance, preferably in 50 caliber. A gun designed for deer hunting but capable of any kind of hunting. I believe a 350 or 400 bullet would stabilize in a 1-24 twist for really big game and that it would still shoot all the normal bullets and loads.

The Pedersoli Denali is a break action 50 1-24 and someone else made one too...Oh yeah the MDM Buckwaka and Quickshooter. They are all hard to find though.

I have an unfired Denali that I would Part with for a 45Elite or something of that nature

Knight is coming out with a break action. Can it or will it be better then a Triumph? That's a very tall task in my opinion, but it sure will be fun trying.

I know and its killing me too. :D Supposedly those have one of the thickest (1 3/8) barrel section lengths of any sub gun near the powder area. I had the cheap Ovation version. The barrel was basically the same and tough as nails. I would love to cut one down for a brush gun.