Bloodlines tested
08-02-2011, 06:52 PM
#11
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Gm54-120
They can not get out-of-round until they come out of the bore. Now they could blow while in the bore but that would be a much uglier picture.... Just imagine the sabot going 2000fps and then nothing in 10-20 feet that is a lot of pressure pushing those wings back and against the cup... How many petals on the sabot in this example? four correct.. how many sides on a square or rectangle?
They can not get out-of-round until they come out of the bore. Now they could blow while in the bore but that would be a much uglier picture.... Just imagine the sabot going 2000fps and then nothing in 10-20 feet that is a lot of pressure pushing those wings back and against the cup... How many petals on the sabot in this example? four correct.. how many sides on a square or rectangle?
08-03-2011, 05:19 AM
#13
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
Grouse, i assumed they are MMP but is it a standard HPH or made just for this application? Such as a shorter HPH-24 with a different dye added. I noticed you used the Harvester Short in your Lehigh 250gr 120gr load. I like that sabot too with a few bullets. The NULA showed a strong preference to that sabot according to Chucks data and my first range day.
Ah ok Sabotloader....i get your point. I had to read it twice to picture it in my head. Ive shot the MMP Orange with max BH209 loads and the few i did recover were not out of round like that. They were nearly always missing all petals but one. I seldom ever found them at all. I found a few shed petals that looked fine. They were not twisted at least and the groups were fine.
Now i can see how that could possibly happen but i am still curious about his results vs the HSB. IMO both should be good sabots and handle 100gr of BH209 easily. Ive used the HSB with a pretty stout load of N110 (fast powder) and the MMP Orange with medium amounts of Re7 (slow powder). Both performed fine but i wasnt using a brass bullet. This year i want to use the 458-275 at SML speeds and my sabot choices are limited since i cant resize them. Monolithic bullets can be much tougher on a sabot since the metal wont obturate. Im willing to use heavy amounts of BH209 if thats what it takes to get them to shoot in the NULA. I guess i could always order some Lehigh 250s but i have 100 275s now and im determined to make them shoot well with smokeless in the 2100-2200fps range if possible.
Thanks everyone. i think we need to take this down a notch and figure out why Omegas results seemed to be poor with the supplied sabot. I DONT want him to feel like some people are only "pro" MMP and coming down on him. Knight or MMP might find the data useful and be able to make a change that gives better results. IMO if Grouse is using the HSB too, there is a reason why. Maybe its just the heat, maybe its not.
We all have our favorite products and making them work well for everyone that wants to try them is the best approach IMO. I think Knights changes to the Lehighs was a good start. What more can be done? I would like to trade some 458-275s or .459s for some 250s for my own testing at pressures that should beat BH209 by a small amount and should in theory be relevant to higher loads of BH209 in sub guns.
Ah ok Sabotloader....i get your point. I had to read it twice to picture it in my head. Ive shot the MMP Orange with max BH209 loads and the few i did recover were not out of round like that. They were nearly always missing all petals but one. I seldom ever found them at all. I found a few shed petals that looked fine. They were not twisted at least and the groups were fine.
Now i can see how that could possibly happen but i am still curious about his results vs the HSB. IMO both should be good sabots and handle 100gr of BH209 easily. Ive used the HSB with a pretty stout load of N110 (fast powder) and the MMP Orange with medium amounts of Re7 (slow powder). Both performed fine but i wasnt using a brass bullet. This year i want to use the 458-275 at SML speeds and my sabot choices are limited since i cant resize them. Monolithic bullets can be much tougher on a sabot since the metal wont obturate. Im willing to use heavy amounts of BH209 if thats what it takes to get them to shoot in the NULA. I guess i could always order some Lehigh 250s but i have 100 275s now and im determined to make them shoot well with smokeless in the 2100-2200fps range if possible.
Thanks everyone. i think we need to take this down a notch and figure out why Omegas results seemed to be poor with the supplied sabot. I DONT want him to feel like some people are only "pro" MMP and coming down on him. Knight or MMP might find the data useful and be able to make a change that gives better results. IMO if Grouse is using the HSB too, there is a reason why. Maybe its just the heat, maybe its not.
We all have our favorite products and making them work well for everyone that wants to try them is the best approach IMO. I think Knights changes to the Lehighs was a good start. What more can be done? I would like to trade some 458-275s or .459s for some 250s for my own testing at pressures that should beat BH209 by a small amount and should in theory be relevant to higher loads of BH209 in sub guns.
Last edited by Gm54-120; 08-03-2011 at 05:41 AM.
08-03-2011, 06:58 AM
#14
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Gm54-120
Number one... I agree they are both good products, it just comes down to to personal preference and maybe even price of the product. The Harvesters generally cost a lot less per 50 than the MMP and that will always draw a following.
I have used them both including the short black but still prefer the longer petals to help get the sabot off the bullet sooner out of the bore.
Powder cup - I do not think there is much doubt in my mind that the cup on the harvester is thicker than the MMP which does result in the cup appearing to be less stressed than you see with a MMP. But in the same vain I believe the cup of the MMP will conform (fit itself) to the lands and grooves of the bore in hunting weather than does the Harvester. Does it make a real difference - I do not actually know - but it seems like it should.
Would you consider the Lehigh bullet monolithic? I certainly have shot a lot of these with both sabots with 120+ grain loads of T7 and BH. The recovered harvester always looks some what better than the MMP, but I have not seen a lot of difference at the target.
Using the example of the monolithic bullet that does not obturate - I would think it would be that much more important for the cup to dip into the grooves and create a tight seal. That seal at the moment of ignition is important and is probably more stressed at that point than any other time in its trip up the bore.
You are correct and a lot of that is price. Tom and I have already talked about that even got a little heated about it... When he can get Harvesters for $4-$5 dollars a pack why wouldn't he shoot them as much testing as he does. MMP's are much more expensive unless you buy them in quanity like I do directly from MMP.
We both agree, we do not shoot the most accurate combination in the world. We both agree that there are more consistently accurate bullets on the market than we choose to shoot. We both agree if we were shooting paper for money we would use a different combination. But at the same time, we both agree the combination we choose to shoot has the best terminal performance on the market and the accuracy of the combination is bettter than most but certainly well within the range of hunting accuracy.
My thoughts are just that my thoughts, I do not like Chevy's either but nobody seems to listen to that one either, except I still think the F-150 is the best selling pickup even though I drive a 250.
Now i can see how that could possibly happen but i am still curious about his results vs the HSB. IMO both should be good sabots and handle 100gr of BH209 easily.
I have used them both including the short black but still prefer the longer petals to help get the sabot off the bullet sooner out of the bore.
Powder cup - I do not think there is much doubt in my mind that the cup on the harvester is thicker than the MMP which does result in the cup appearing to be less stressed than you see with a MMP. But in the same vain I believe the cup of the MMP will conform (fit itself) to the lands and grooves of the bore in hunting weather than does the Harvester. Does it make a real difference - I do not actually know - but it seems like it should.
Monolithic bullets can be much tougher on a sabot since the metal wont obturate.
Using the example of the monolithic bullet that does not obturate - I would think it would be that much more important for the cup to dip into the grooves and create a tight seal. That seal at the moment of ignition is important and is probably more stressed at that point than any other time in its trip up the bore.
IMO if Grouse is using the HSB too, there is a reason why
We both agree, we do not shoot the most accurate combination in the world. We both agree that there are more consistently accurate bullets on the market than we choose to shoot. We both agree if we were shooting paper for money we would use a different combination. But at the same time, we both agree the combination we choose to shoot has the best terminal performance on the market and the accuracy of the combination is bettter than most but certainly well within the range of hunting accuracy.
My thoughts are just that my thoughts, I do not like Chevy's either but nobody seems to listen to that one either, except I still think the F-150 is the best selling pickup even though I drive a 250.
08-03-2011, 07:33 AM
#15
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 550
Finding sabots with blown petals and cups that are not round concerns me. If you look at the cup of the Harvester you can see it is round and bigger in diameter, conforming to the bore upon exit.
The 250 Bloodline also sits better in the Harvester sabot.
I am not a paid ensorser for Harvester, I bought the sabots. Just in case anyone wondered.
The 250 Bloodline also sits better in the Harvester sabot.
I am not a paid ensorser for Harvester, I bought the sabots. Just in case anyone wondered.
I agree Omega.....if the hsb is holding up in the heat and the groups are good on the paper......Why would you use anything else???
I am not one that does alot of testing but have shot the hsb in hot 95 degree weather and in cold -10 wind chill and have always had good results on paper and for the sabot's, I have found....they have never had a blown petal and the cup has been round.....and in my endeavor, i have not felt a loading difference in extreme temps....
So, why would I spend twice the money for the mmp??? price may come into play but why would anyone pay twice the money for a sabot, that is not holding up? when there is one cheaper and works as well, for less money. I enderstand in this case, it may not effect the flight or the results on paper. but, I guess I like the idea of knowing my sabot is staying intact.
Last edited by EndeavorShooter; 08-03-2011 at 07:36 AM.
08-03-2011, 09:40 AM
#16
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
I get both brands locally for about the same price at Grafs ($4.95/50) but the MMPs were actually Hornady 45x40s. The rebranded T/Cs or the CR for boat tails are expensive though. I also buy in large bulk from MMP occasionally and Del cuts me a deal on large orders. I cant say the same for Harvester's bulk pricing but it doesn't really matter. Both are usually a pleasure to talk to and service is great. Both have given me free samples to try and let others try.
Last year, i got lucky. My best shooters were my hunting loads but if they stay within about 2.5" at 100 yards and im not shooting much further.....im happy to use the better quality bullet.
Last year, i got lucky. My best shooters were my hunting loads but if they stay within about 2.5" at 100 yards and im not shooting much further.....im happy to use the better quality bullet.
Last edited by Gm54-120; 08-03-2011 at 09:51 AM.
08-03-2011, 03:29 PM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Saxonburg Pa
Posts: 3,925
Gm54-120,
The Orange sabots supplied with the 250grn Bloodlines are Knight EZ Load sabots. MFG#900126
The redish sabot that comes with the 275grn and 300grn Bloodline bullets are a MMP .458 sabots. They are the Orange HPH 50x458 sabot that MMP sales made a different color for Knight. Sabotloader i'm sure can verify that pretty quick.
The Harvester sabots became a favorite of mine shooting smokeless powders in the NULA. The savage in most cases like MMP sabots better.
The target below is 200 yards with the short Black harvester sabot.
The Orange sabots supplied with the 250grn Bloodlines are Knight EZ Load sabots. MFG#900126
The redish sabot that comes with the 275grn and 300grn Bloodline bullets are a MMP .458 sabots. They are the Orange HPH 50x458 sabot that MMP sales made a different color for Knight. Sabotloader i'm sure can verify that pretty quick.
The Harvester sabots became a favorite of mine shooting smokeless powders in the NULA. The savage in most cases like MMP sabots better.
The target below is 200 yards with the short Black harvester sabot.
08-03-2011, 04:21 PM
#18
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MD/PA Line
Posts: 598
Grouse,
I am 99.9% sure the 250 and 300gr Bloodlines I have are the same diameter of .453ish. Difference is sabot color and the petals on the maroon are a tad longer. I have not shot the 300's yet.
I am 99.9% sure the 250 and 300gr Bloodlines I have are the same diameter of .453ish. Difference is sabot color and the petals on the maroon are a tad longer. I have not shot the 300's yet.
08-03-2011, 04:41 PM
#19
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Saxonburg Pa
Posts: 3,925
The 250grn Bullets are .452 at the metplate of the bullet. The knurls are probably close to .453. The 300grn bullets are .458, and maybe .459 at the Knurls.
08-03-2011, 04:45 PM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Saxonburg Pa
Posts: 3,925
The more i think about this, Knight could of packaged the bullets wrong. You could have 250grn bullets in a 300grn box. That would be how or why you think a 300grn bullet is .452. The 300grn bullets are not .452, i'm 100% sure.