Quote from Dave
Lets take a for instance. At 100 yards Johnny can shot a 2 inch group using a Speer Deep Curl and 85 grains of powder. When Johnny kicks the powder charge up to 110 grains of the same powder, and with the same bullet, his group opens up to 2-1/2 inches. Is the additional 25 grains of powder worth the extra 1/2 inch difference?

Dave the problem I have with that is in all the muzzleloaders I have had something over 30 that has only held true in one gun, so I can not consider it the norm.
Its held true in traditionals of 54 caliber also naturally the squirrel guns have been down in the 50 to 70 grain range. Now I tend to have 54 caliber traditionals and 50 caliber in lines so that's the area I am speaking of.
Now I agree with Sabot loader 100 % on the Hydraulic shock because that's what it is and in a good part of the country if you have to leave a deer over night all you find in the morning is a pile of bones.
To me there is another factor involved when I kill an animal I wish to kill it dead I do not want it to run off and I do not want it to suffer not even for 5 minute. Know I have TC guns which are fairly light in weight and I have some loads which use 140 grains of powder and I have never had a bruise from recoil and as far as old is concerned all my hunting buddies have died or gone by the wayside for health reasons and can't hunt any more so I hunt alone [pushing 75]. My best hunting Buddie was my wife and she died of cancer 10 years ago. the other two I always hunted with are house bound for health reasons so I have to drop that deer where I can get to him with the ATV or the tractor.

Well, I'm glad to see I have brought some life back to this forum. This is getting to be a very interesting post. So many different opinions. And most are backed up by logical explanations from past experience. Keep it going. I find this very interesting.

It seems to me most of the logic for higher charges relates to how far the deer/elk ect travels after it is shot.

I hunt in the woods of the east where you generally can't see more than 50-75 yards and as I sit here and rack my brain, I can only think of 1 deer in the last 4 or 5 years that got out my sight after being shot. The majority of them didn't travel more than 20 yards.

Are people having deer run off consistently?

Deer run off.. no. Of all the deer I shot, maybe 90% were dropped where they stood or fell. Very few ever ran more then 30 yards.

Shot placement is everything. i want the animal to suffer as little as possible. Couple of years ago i had to re-group after some long tracking and dragging jobs. For years i used 130-150 grain loads of Pyrodex RS: Those loads knocked deer and hogs stone dead. Now my loads are 100 grains and they also kill well. My Encore is an exception: It's sighted in for 140 grains of Pinnacle 3F and the 250 grain SST/Shockwave bullet.

i'm 72 years old and in very good shape for hunting. i hunt mostly alone. When i do hunt with other folks they are usually much younger. Got tired of listening to guys my age whine about the heat, the cold, aches and pains. i've got aches and pains too: They seem to go away when i'm hunting.

That's fantastic falcon. I pray that in 20 years I will still be out there.

In my .50, and .54 sidelocks, I use 90 to 100 grains FFG Goex. I find that going over 100 grains, accuracy diminishes. In my inlines, again, 90 to 100 grains, FFG Goex, or 777, depending on the inline I am shooting. My older inlines, both .50, and .54, Firehawk, and Thunderhawk like 90 grains Goex FFG. My .50 Encore Katahdin, and .50 Omega Dream Season shoot well with 100 grains FFG 777. I have killed deer with all these ML,s except the Omega, which is new. I don't need to pound my body, with "magnum loads", and I get good results with the above loads.

How much can a bullet hold up velocity wise? You start pushing over 2000 fps will it expand? I depends on the bullets. Some yes others no. Even Toby Bridges has stated that. They did a test with just a reg xtp and other bullet i can't remember at a hunting camp with 15 hunters. All the deer shot with xtp ran atleast 20 yards. The other bullet dropped them were they stood. They all came to the conclusion that the XTP was going too fast and blowing clean through. Almost like a lead cast bullet. Lead cast bullets are meant for deep penetration NOT expansion. Anyone that cast rifle/pistol bullets will tell you that. So for the jacketed bullets I truly believe you can get to a point with muzzleloader when your pushing a pistol bullet tooo much and it almost becomes a lead bullet. It wasn't designed for that much power. Especially with BH209.

Also I liked what was said earlier. It depends on the hunter and how much they can stand the recoil. Same exact gun/bullet may shoot better with a 18 year old and 90 grains of powder and just as good with a 35 year old and 120 grains of powder. Which is right? Both

I mostly use heavy conicals and low powder charges. I feel the loss in velocity is made up by the greater mass of the bullet. When I shoot a muzzleloader I am not trying to mimic a centerfire rifle. If that was what I wanted, I would shoot a centerfire.
Anyway, it is foot pounds of energy when the projectile hits the deer that matters. Heavy conicals and 70 to 80 grains of powder will do the job nicely.
Art

I agree totally when it comes to conicals with 70-80 gr, that the mass of the bullet plowing through creates devastating damage.as i said earlier with quality saboted bullets 100-110 is normally the sweet spot,but there are rare exceptions.even with saboted bullets, a 300gr bullet kills more effectively than a .250 gr. Ray