Hence, "Hydrostatic Shock" or as i prefer to look at because I understand fluids a little better - 'Hydraulic Shock'. And now my belief that the greater the greater the 'SUDDEN SHOCK' the animal receives the greater the opportunity it will overide the animals 'Fright & flight Response' which for me means a lot less tracking. Two steps is good for me!

With a Lehigh and velocity - i kin doo dat

OK, point taken Grouse & Sabotloader. :s1: Maybe I should have said "in my opinion the main advantage to more speed is a flatter trajectory". Dead is dead. :D

Yep... you are right but an animal can be dead and not really know it for awhile... especially an animal in flight or a bull elk in the rut...

I like sudden dead versus dead later...

And Semi I am not disagreeing wit ya in the way most might think - it is just that I am old.

Old guys are often right, dammit.

Hey! I'm old my own self. Maybe I'm a little bit right too. After all, "dead right there" is so over rated. :s2: You miss out of the fun of calling out your buddies for a tracking job in the dark. :arms: It's even more fun if it starts raining and tracking turns into a body search.

Well the question is how dead do you want and how much meat do you want to waste. If you shoot the shoulder out you will drop its in its tracks. Yet waste alot of meat in that shoulder. If you lung shot behind the shoulder the deer will run alittle bit but little to no meat is wasted. I still say AROUND the 100 ish mark seems to be right. But again every gun is different.

I like the theory that "Speed Kills!" The faster that bullet is going the better the penetration and the better the kinetic energy. I don't like taking the chance of being dead a 100 yards in stuff so thick you can't get through it to track. I don't want to track if it is at all possible not to.

If you look at the Barnes reloading manual you will see that there velocity increase over 100 grains of powder. I think they use 26 inch barrel or maybe 28 inches to measure velocity...use whatever charge shoots best in your firearm.

I generally use 120-130 grains of T7 FFF with fantastic accuracy and not in just one rifle. Changing to the FF version doesn't make much a difference. If it's cold weather I generally shoot the FFF version...

I mentioned this point because of some of the people on this forum. I also feel the design of the bullet comes into play. If we push a bullet to its max accurate level, that should be the correct powder charge. But now the concern comes to what is considered acceptable accurate level. Also, should we factor in such things as recoil, barrel fouling, and hunter confidence.

Lets take a for instance. At 100 yards Johnny can shot a 2 inch group using a Speer Deep Curl and 85 grains of powder. When Johnny kicks the powder charge up to 110 grains of the same powder, and with the same bullet, his group opens up to 2-1/2 inches. Is the additional 25 grains of powder worth the extra 1/2 inch difference?

Now take into consideration.. if the groups opens 1/2 inch at 100 yards, what might the expected results of those same groups be at 200 yards? Next, Johnny knows that the deer shot with 85 grains of powder will almost certainly be a pass through type wound. Also recoil is brutal to Johnny with 110 grains of powder because he's old and don't like to be pushed around.

What if Johnny was shooting a 495 grains conical. With 85 grains he got excellent accuracy. With 110 grains of powder, he got black and blue. What would you shoot?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this subject. Personally, I tend to shoot 70 - 100 grains T7 fffg. I've always been able to find something that shoots well within this range. I have no problem with people who like to push the limits of what their muzzy's can do, but I'm not one of them. Now if I had a rifle that wouldn't shoot accurately with a lower powder charge, I would not be afraid to increase to 110 - 120 grains, but I have never needed to do this. I can see the advantages of a higher velocity, especially for long range shooting, but I prefer milder loads.

Some of the fastest kills I've made were using 80 grains of T7. It's all about shot placement and using good quality bullets.

The stiffest load I've ever shot was 110g of 777 pushing a .400 200g XTP. 95% of my shots are less than 100 yards. 80% of them I bet are less than 50 yards. FOR ME, I have no reason to shoot big charges.

I'm not a big guy so the gun may be capable of shooting tight groups w/big charges but I am not.