Opinions on Powder Charges
 

Cayugad brought up and interesting question regarding powder charges in his Scorpion bullet post.
He had asked "How many actually believe that more powder is better?"

Personally I feel a lot of guys use too much powder.
I am of the opininon that with a .50 cal, anything over 100 gr and with a .45 cal anything over 90 gr. is wasted (assuming a 28" or shorter barrel). I haven't decided on the .54 yet as I've not had enough experience with them. But I think about 120 gr would be the point of diminishing returns with a 32" bbl.
I know I am going to get a lot of flack on this because their rifle is rated to handle a 150 gr "magnum" charge. When I had my Optima Pro I talked to a couple techs at CVA about this and they basically said the same thing as I had thought. Quote: "Yes, your Optima Pro will take a 150 gr charge but you will be wasting powder. Stick to 100 gr or less."
At last count, I have 9 MLs (8 sidelocks and one inline). Of these only one rifle, a 50 cal flinter, likes a stiff charge of 100 gr of FFFg. The other 50s like charges in the 80 - 90 gr range and the 45s in the 70-80 gr range.
Let's hear your opinions on this.

I will say 110grns of 777 or 110grns of BH209 are all i need in a 50cal ML. I also believe in fast clean kills. I think you should shoot your bullet as fast as you can safely and accurately.

110 gr max when shooting BH and saboted bullets and 75 gr max with the full bore conicals. sometimes that extra 10 gr when shooting saboted bullets tightens the groups up.anything more than that and it starts falling off.. Ray

When I was playing around with my .45 GM/LRH Renegade I shot GOEX loads starting at 85 grains and moving in 10 grain increments up to 125 grains. I got velocity increases with each 10 grain bump in powder - about a 250 fps spread from bottom to top. But the 85 grain load was the most accurate. And at around 1750 fps it had all of the killing power I need for my 150 yards or less hunting situation.

I also shot T7 in ten grain increments from 60 grains (1566 fps) to 110 grains (2037 fps). But the 80 grain load at around 1775 fps was the most accurate.

Well I believe you set your sights to low on the powder charge and the chrony backs me up on this as long as the FPS takes a reasonable rise the powder is not wasted.
Also it makes a big difference what powder you are talking about.Black or Pyrodex reach the peak of efficiency between 110 and 120gr but you can still gain quite a few FPS after that. I personally don't care how much powder it takes to make a gun shoot best, actually a lot of people don't realize it but there are two or three accuracy load for most guns with the same bullet, there is often one between 70 and 95 grains [not usually the tightest group but a decent accuracy load just the same good for the kids and the ladies that are recoil sensitive] and an other one between 100 and 120 and yet another one at 130 to 150with Blackhorn.
Now if your allergic to recoil or faster bullets then you will be happy below a 100gr but if you use Blackhorn it won't even reach its burning clean pressure with a light bullet with that kind of a load.
I feel a lot of guys shoot below an efficient load. I know I recommend loads like that some times usually for the kids that are learning to shoot, I just was teaching a 13 year old with 70 gr and a 200 gr bullet yesterday, because he needs to learn how to move with the recoil before he shoots a decent load that's why I would not let him use the bench also. I am afraid from what I have read that there are some people on here that could use 101 in recoil handling.

On the other hand, if a bullet fully expands and usually exits the game it's probably going fast enough. The only real advantage to more speed is a flatter trajectory.

I must admit that I have not included BH209 in this equation. Although it may be a terrific powder, I have not used it nor do I see myself using it in the near future simply because I personally do not see a significant increase in return for the amount of $ increase. Now don't get me wrong. I am not stubborn nor am I opposed to change. But my experience with good old BP and Pyrodex has been very good. And my shooting with open sights pretty much limits me to 100 yds or less. I know they are 'dirtier' but I don't mind the swabbing between shots or the after shooting cleaning.
For now, let's leave BH209 (and White Hots) out of this and limit your opinions to BP, Pyrodex, and T7. I am curious as to all of your opinions.

i shot 777 prior to Bh209, to me there isn't much difference. 110 gr was my max load when using 777 with saboted bullets..i don't miss the crud ring lol.. Ray

bronko22000

I think most already know, but I am set on the 110 -120 grain powder load with T7 or BH - makes no difference to me or the guns that I shoot it in. The Knights and the White handle 120 very well, while the TC's (inlines) seem to function very well with the 110 grain loads.

In my Renegade-GMount LRH barrel I shoot the same loads as I do in the normal Knights. In a real Renegade most often it will be 100 grains of T7-3f except when shooting Bull Shops - the real Renegades like the 75-80 grain range and the LRH really settles down with 90 grains of T7-3f.

I really believe Lee's post is right on but it still comes down to personal preference.

I will add one other factor that I feel figures into the whole equation - 'Harmonics" specifically 'Barrel Harmonics'. Depending on the barrel and bareel to stock fit 'Harmonics' become very important to the accuracy of the load.

This is absolutely false. Kinetic energy on game is increased with speed. There are so many ways to show you but i think this one is the easiest to understand. I do agree a good bullet exiting the animal should do the job at any speed.

The information below is from Hornadys web-site.

In essence, a bullet going through soft tissue has the same effect as dropping a stone into a pail of water - if the stone (bullet) enters the water slowly, the water (tissue) displacement is so gradual that is has little effect on the surrounding molecules. If the stone (bullet) enters the water (tissue) with a lot of momentum, however, the surrounding molecules have to act a lot more quickly and violently, resulting in a splash (temporary cavity). Temporary cavitation is important because it can be a tremendous wounding mechanism.

Hence, "Hydrostatic Shock" or as i prefer to look at because I understand fluids a little better - 'Hydraulic Shock'. And now my belief that the greater the greater the 'SUDDEN SHOCK' the animal receives the greater the opportunity it will overide the animals 'Fright & flight Response' which for me means a lot less tracking. Two steps is good for me!

With a Lehigh and velocity - i kin doo dat

OK, point taken Grouse & Sabotloader. :s1: Maybe I should have said "in my opinion the main advantage to more speed is a flatter trajectory". Dead is dead. :D

Yep... you are right but an animal can be dead and not really know it for awhile... especially an animal in flight or a bull elk in the rut...

I like sudden dead versus dead later...

And Semi I am not disagreeing wit ya in the way most might think - it is just that I am old.

Old guys are often right, dammit.

Hey! I'm old my own self. Maybe I'm a little bit right too. After all, "dead right there" is so over rated. :s2: You miss out of the fun of calling out your buddies for a tracking job in the dark. :arms: It's even more fun if it starts raining and tracking turns into a body search.

Well the question is how dead do you want and how much meat do you want to waste. If you shoot the shoulder out you will drop its in its tracks. Yet waste alot of meat in that shoulder. If you lung shot behind the shoulder the deer will run alittle bit but little to no meat is wasted. I still say AROUND the 100 ish mark seems to be right. But again every gun is different.

I like the theory that "Speed Kills!" The faster that bullet is going the better the penetration and the better the kinetic energy. I don't like taking the chance of being dead a 100 yards in stuff so thick you can't get through it to track. I don't want to track if it is at all possible not to.

If you look at the Barnes reloading manual you will see that there velocity increase over 100 grains of powder. I think they use 26 inch barrel or maybe 28 inches to measure velocity...use whatever charge shoots best in your firearm.

I generally use 120-130 grains of T7 FFF with fantastic accuracy and not in just one rifle. Changing to the FF version doesn't make much a difference. If it's cold weather I generally shoot the FFF version...

I mentioned this point because of some of the people on this forum. I also feel the design of the bullet comes into play. If we push a bullet to its max accurate level, that should be the correct powder charge. But now the concern comes to what is considered acceptable accurate level. Also, should we factor in such things as recoil, barrel fouling, and hunter confidence.

Lets take a for instance. At 100 yards Johnny can shot a 2 inch group using a Speer Deep Curl and 85 grains of powder. When Johnny kicks the powder charge up to 110 grains of the same powder, and with the same bullet, his group opens up to 2-1/2 inches. Is the additional 25 grains of powder worth the extra 1/2 inch difference?

Now take into consideration.. if the groups opens 1/2 inch at 100 yards, what might the expected results of those same groups be at 200 yards? Next, Johnny knows that the deer shot with 85 grains of powder will almost certainly be a pass through type wound. Also recoil is brutal to Johnny with 110 grains of powder because he's old and don't like to be pushed around.

What if Johnny was shooting a 495 grains conical. With 85 grains he got excellent accuracy. With 110 grains of powder, he got black and blue. What would you shoot?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this subject. Personally, I tend to shoot 70 - 100 grains T7 fffg. I've always been able to find something that shoots well within this range. I have no problem with people who like to push the limits of what their muzzy's can do, but I'm not one of them. Now if I had a rifle that wouldn't shoot accurately with a lower powder charge, I would not be afraid to increase to 110 - 120 grains, but I have never needed to do this. I can see the advantages of a higher velocity, especially for long range shooting, but I prefer milder loads.

Some of the fastest kills I've made were using 80 grains of T7. It's all about shot placement and using good quality bullets.

The stiffest load I've ever shot was 110g of 777 pushing a .400 200g XTP. 95% of my shots are less than 100 yards. 80% of them I bet are less than 50 yards. FOR ME, I have no reason to shoot big charges.

I'm not a big guy so the gun may be capable of shooting tight groups w/big charges but I am not.

Quote from Dave
Lets take a for instance. At 100 yards Johnny can shot a 2 inch group using a Speer Deep Curl and 85 grains of powder. When Johnny kicks the powder charge up to 110 grains of the same powder, and with the same bullet, his group opens up to 2-1/2 inches. Is the additional 25 grains of powder worth the extra 1/2 inch difference?

Dave the problem I have with that is in all the muzzleloaders I have had something over 30 that has only held true in one gun, so I can not consider it the norm.
Its held true in traditionals of 54 caliber also naturally the squirrel guns have been down in the 50 to 70 grain range. Now I tend to have 54 caliber traditionals and 50 caliber in lines so that's the area I am speaking of.
Now I agree with Sabot loader 100 % on the Hydraulic shock because that's what it is and in a good part of the country if you have to leave a deer over night all you find in the morning is a pile of bones.
To me there is another factor involved when I kill an animal I wish to kill it dead I do not want it to run off and I do not want it to suffer not even for 5 minute. Know I have TC guns which are fairly light in weight and I have some loads which use 140 grains of powder and I have never had a bruise from recoil and as far as old is concerned all my hunting buddies have died or gone by the wayside for health reasons and can't hunt any more so I hunt alone [pushing 75]. My best hunting Buddie was my wife and she died of cancer 10 years ago. the other two I always hunted with are house bound for health reasons so I have to drop that deer where I can get to him with the ATV or the tractor.

Well, I'm glad to see I have brought some life back to this forum. This is getting to be a very interesting post. So many different opinions. And most are backed up by logical explanations from past experience. Keep it going. I find this very interesting.

It seems to me most of the logic for higher charges relates to how far the deer/elk ect travels after it is shot.

I hunt in the woods of the east where you generally can't see more than 50-75 yards and as I sit here and rack my brain, I can only think of 1 deer in the last 4 or 5 years that got out my sight after being shot. The majority of them didn't travel more than 20 yards.

Are people having deer run off consistently?

Deer run off.. no. Of all the deer I shot, maybe 90% were dropped where they stood or fell. Very few ever ran more then 30 yards.

Shot placement is everything. i want the animal to suffer as little as possible. Couple of years ago i had to re-group after some long tracking and dragging jobs. For years i used 130-150 grain loads of Pyrodex RS: Those loads knocked deer and hogs stone dead. Now my loads are 100 grains and they also kill well. My Encore is an exception: It's sighted in for 140 grains of Pinnacle 3F and the 250 grain SST/Shockwave bullet.

i'm 72 years old and in very good shape for hunting. i hunt mostly alone. When i do hunt with other folks they are usually much younger. Got tired of listening to guys my age whine about the heat, the cold, aches and pains. i've got aches and pains too: They seem to go away when i'm hunting.

That's fantastic falcon. I pray that in 20 years I will still be out there.

In my .50, and .54 sidelocks, I use 90 to 100 grains FFG Goex. I find that going over 100 grains, accuracy diminishes. In my inlines, again, 90 to 100 grains, FFG Goex, or 777, depending on the inline I am shooting. My older inlines, both .50, and .54, Firehawk, and Thunderhawk like 90 grains Goex FFG. My .50 Encore Katahdin, and .50 Omega Dream Season shoot well with 100 grains FFG 777. I have killed deer with all these ML,s except the Omega, which is new. I don't need to pound my body, with "magnum loads", and I get good results with the above loads.

How much can a bullet hold up velocity wise? You start pushing over 2000 fps will it expand? I depends on the bullets. Some yes others no. Even Toby Bridges has stated that. They did a test with just a reg xtp and other bullet i can't remember at a hunting camp with 15 hunters. All the deer shot with xtp ran atleast 20 yards. The other bullet dropped them were they stood. They all came to the conclusion that the XTP was going too fast and blowing clean through. Almost like a lead cast bullet. Lead cast bullets are meant for deep penetration NOT expansion. Anyone that cast rifle/pistol bullets will tell you that. So for the jacketed bullets I truly believe you can get to a point with muzzleloader when your pushing a pistol bullet tooo much and it almost becomes a lead bullet. It wasn't designed for that much power. Especially with BH209.

Also I liked what was said earlier. It depends on the hunter and how much they can stand the recoil. Same exact gun/bullet may shoot better with a 18 year old and 90 grains of powder and just as good with a 35 year old and 120 grains of powder. Which is right? Both

I mostly use heavy conicals and low powder charges. I feel the loss in velocity is made up by the greater mass of the bullet. When I shoot a muzzleloader I am not trying to mimic a centerfire rifle. If that was what I wanted, I would shoot a centerfire.
Anyway, it is foot pounds of energy when the projectile hits the deer that matters. Heavy conicals and 70 to 80 grains of powder will do the job nicely.
Art

I agree totally when it comes to conicals with 70-80 gr, that the mass of the bullet plowing through creates devastating damage.as i said earlier with quality saboted bullets 100-110 is normally the sweet spot,but there are rare exceptions.even with saboted bullets, a 300gr bullet kills more effectively than a .250 gr. Ray

Great work guys. A lot of opinions. And it seems to me that a lot of you (including me) rate their charges depending on bullet selection.
But besides the powder charge debate, I am also seeing a lot of differences when bullet choice is thrown in. And logical too. But I sort of disagree with Builder's statement about a 300 gr sabot kills more effectively than a 250. I know what he meant but the wording may have been a bit off. Let's face it, Semisane said it best "Dead is dead, right". I believe what Builder was meaning to say that if both bullets were traveling at the same velocity than yes, the 300 gr would have more kenetic energy delivering more hydraulic shock to the animal hence causing more tissue damage (more effective). However the 250 with an equal charge will be traveling faster than a 300. How much faster I do not know without a chronograph. Now, does this increase in velocity nullify the extra 50 gr of bullet weight? How much faster must a 250 gr bullet go to equal the kenetic energy of a 300 gr bullet.
But then again, there is another factor that comes into play and that is penetration. On a whitetail I don't think it makes a hill of beans difference. The faster 250 will blow thru a whitetail's lungs the same as a slower 300 gr. But if I were to be hunting anything larger than whitetails, I would prefer the slower 300 gr which would in all likelyhood provide greater penetration.
Wow, this bullet debate is going to open up a whole new can of worms.
Am I a trouble maker or what!!! :)

My groups on my Knight Disc open up when I go over 80-90grs of Goex FFF...My current load is a Hornady .430 XTP in 300gr...It groups well with 80grs and I've killed several deer with it...The ones I didn't want to run off, I hit high in the shoulder or low in the neck and they fell right there...None of the lung shot deer went over 50 yards...I'm happy...

In my .54 caliber flintlock that I built in the 80s, I started with 120grs of Goex FF...After a few years I backed down to 100grs of FF and for the past 10 years or so I've been using 80grs of Goex FFF...

Dang if I can tell a difference in how well that round ball kills...

I shoot whats most accurate in my gun with such and such bullet.

100gr blackhorn209 in my Optima's - Wolf with the 250gr Thor
100- 110gr " both charges are very close in accuracy" blackhorn209 in my scoped optima with the 250gr powerbelt aerolite.

You can't and never will. Wind drift alone is off the charts compared to a 270 or 308 CF rifle.

Don't forget some states are not allowed to hunt with a CF rifle. I can see why those people are trying to get the most out of a shotgun or ML.

I try to get the most out of mine too but that doesn't mean I have to use the mostest powder.;);)

Bronko yes, mine was the shorter version and yes the 300 gr will do a better job of killing lol.Bronko look at the data on the PT gold .260 and .300 or the .250 and .290 TEZ with 110 gr Bh 209. they leave the barrel at almost the same velocity.and i feel even on smaller deer size animals at closer ranges the .300 is still more effective and we know it most certainly is at longer ranges.both most certainly will kill, any way we slice it.so will big slow heavy lead with nice metplates. i won't use a hollow point pure lead conical myself, since they tend to come apart at closer ranges. great thread you started here with a lot of good info.:party0005: Ray

Could be, it need go the square root of 300/250 times faster.

Well from my records I normally start at 80 grains when checking for an accuracy load so I have the 300 gr GD figures for that for 100 yds 1705 Foot Pounds
For the 250 with my triumph deer load of 110 grains I have figured 1560 Foot Pounds for 100 yds.
Now since a 250 GD will drop a deer on the spot with 850 FP at long range which I know because I have done it. The only advantage I can see would be if the deer were standing one behind the other and you were trying for more than one, which I would not do any way and since I do use the 300 for bigger game like elk the only real difference I see here is in the trajectory.
Guess how much that is.