Size or Speed?
 

Which performs better? Watch this video, and you'll see speed is the answer.
http://www.archive.org/details/Termi...armsInOrdnance

I am a football/baseball coach - I'll take speed all day... the old saying 'speed kills'

Makes you wonder if in BP guns we shouldn't be going to small bullets and large powder charges.

One of my favorite.... Lehigh 40/200 grain 110 grains T7...



That 200 traveling @ 2200-2300 fps makes quite an impression when it gets where it is going...

Problem is if you go to light you loose energy very quickly. So they become less effective at longer ranges. Stacking powder doesn't work that well either as the bullet is out the barrel before all the powder can be burnt. Now if you had powder like smokeless that you could choose different rates of burn you might really be able to do something...

You don't think that BH 209 is all burning in heavy loads?

Even inefficient BP will still increase FPS when big loads are used. Even if half of it blows out the barrel.

BH is not effective as T7 when shooting light projectiles as BH is progressive burning so it is somewhat slow.

With T7 going from 110 to 120 grains I get a decent increase in velocity... going from 120-130 it is a very small jump, not even much worth the effort, so after 130 you are sending the rest out the barrel into the snow.... even at a 130 you shooting a % of that into the snow as unburnt powder...

Only a few of the smokeless options give a excellent burn percentage. Those typically spike psi faster and use much less powder. Slower powders need more powder to make enough psi but end up running out of barrel without some load work. Using smokeless some people use a duplex charge to over come this. A small booster load (10gr) of faster powder first then the slower powder on top of that.

Kinda makes me wonder what 10gr of T7 under 100gr+ of BH209 would do with a 200gr bullet in a 45cal ML. Im curious but im not sure i want to try that one.

Here is a video of a 200g SST at 1800fps

Here is a video of a 440g conical at 1450fps


The 200g bullet passed through 4 jugs, and was found on the ground. The 440g bullet passed through 5 jugs, and embedded into the phone books with a about 2" penetration.

I believe Ron has showed speed is not always the answer.

Your exactly right, but. You need to go to a 45caliber to get the full benefit. Like sabotloader said, 777 is better with lighter bullets in normal loads. But heavy loads of BH209 and 200grn bullets BH209 shines. My Chronagraph is still going up with 140grns of BH209 and a 200grn bullet. You will not see that with 777.

135grns of BH209 and 200grn bullet equals 2491 avg.

140grns of BH209 and 200grn bullet equals 2523 avg

Knight Rifles is the only ML company that allows 150grn loads by volume.

No matter how you want to look at it, speed kills.

Not really. Only 400 fps more for half the weight is not enough.

Look at the video. That's a .223. A .22! It was going twice the speed, and was much more effective.

Your exactly right, Ron shot the 200grn SST at 1800fps. That's really anemic for that light of bullet. A 50cal ML will get that going 22 to 2300 pretty easy.

Omega45

1800 fps for a 40-200 SST is like shooting a 22 short when you could be shooting a LR or even a 22 mag.

It is really easy to reach 2200 fps with a 40-200 - you would need to look at a ballistic table to really see the difference and there is a huge difference.

Not saying it would not work @ 1800fps but very few would shoot that bullet at 1800 fps.

Speed kills but I wouldn't want to be in front of a 538 gr .451 conical traveling at a slow 1200-1400 fps either.I'm as concerned with energy as I am with speed.

I totally agree with your statement about heavy bullets and the enrgy they carry when traveling slow... But slow really does concern me these days. It is my feeling animals have a lot better understanding about people that are hunting than they use to... I want the speed (velocity) to get the bullet on target as fast as it can get there and yet have sufficient energy to do the job.

How long does it take a scittish (I do not think that is a word - but you all understand) anyway how far can a nervous animal move in a split second and what was a great shot becomes a very bad shot.... that concerns me...

I agree, I have this result also. Blackhorn is a progressive burning powder this means that the higher the pressure the faster it burns. I believe that at sea level [the elevation makes a difference in how fast the pressure builds because it starts at a different pressure] it takes 135 Gr's of Blackhorn to reach the efficient burning level of pressure with a 200gr bullet. I can not argue with Sabot-loaders results because at about 5,000 feet and with out going to excessive loads they are accurate. I also believe that is why a constant burning fast burning powder like 777 gives him the best results and it is also part of the reason he has no problem with crudring, but since I do most of my shooting at lower levels I will continue to use Blackhorn.

Here is a video of a 300g Lehigh brass bullet traveling at 1855fps

Here is a video of the 440g conical traveling at 1450fps


As written before, the concical was found in the phone books about 2" deep. The brass bullet was also found in the phone books with it's tail still visible.

ronlaughlin

That is exactly why I shoot that bullet at 1950-60 fps

I know what you mean, but since I bowhunt a lot when I go from 300fps with my bow to 1400 fps with a big conical I feel like I have something traveling super fast. When I shoot a dead center sabot 40/45 260 gr at 2200 fps then i guess my conical seems slow. I do try to make an effort for perfect shot placement whether its an arrow at 300 or a bullet at 1400-2300.

Now your getting close. The difference is the Lehigh will do the same thing every time. The lead conical anything could happen.

here's a good read by Doc
http://whitemuzzleloading.com/myweb2...d_a_killer.htm g

Here is a video of a 300g Nosler Partition traveling at 1850fps

The Nosler was found in the phone books about 5/8" deep.

Correct Ron because the Nosler retains more weight, but IMO it does not do the damage internally or cause the same degree of 'Shock' to the animal as does the Lehigh when harvesting animals vs jugs. Plus remember I am/was a certified Nosler fan and shooter, until I started using Lehigh's...

I don't believe speed is always the answer. You have to weigh all the factors. That is why there are so many different centerfire chamberings. The 220 Swift - probably the fastest cartridge ever developed is absoulutely no good for dangerous game up close. And hence, a 458 Win Mag is not the best choice for pronghorn antelope at 400 yds.
I feel its the same with MLs. I would not hesitate to use a 180gr .40 cal saboted bullet out of an accurate 45 cal ML for deer out to 200 - 250 yds. But if I were face to face with a big bear at close quarters, I'd want a min 50 cal with a big hunk of lead coming out of the muzzle.

Ron,
Do you still have the Barnes .458 Socom video? Heavy yet pretty fast.

bronko22000

Point - counter-point - think you cleared that one up just fine... It really does matter what you might be hunting + the possible effect of the external forces acting on the bullet in flight...

In our ML season i am required to shoot a full bore lead conical, so I shoot a .503-460 grain Bull Shop with 90 grains of T7. That gives me a velocity of 1500-1550 fps for a 460 grain bullet!!!. That thing is a freight train and hits just as hard.. At a 100 the 460 carries 1608 FPE and a 300 grain Lehigh brings 1591 FPE with it, and at 200 yard the Bull Shop has 1220 FPE of energy left while the 300 grain Lehigh at 200 yards has 1105 FPE left - but the Lehigh gets there a whole lot faster in both cases...

Exactly!!! Why do you think there are many different ML barrels with different twist. I don't know if there is one cal one bullet one powder for all game animals. Most of us have different ML for different types of hunting. For me my inline is the all weather/long distance shooting and all game animals. My .54 1:70twist is 100 yards or less deer/elk. My .54 flintlock I dont know yet, but probably under 100 yards and deer only. My .54 LRH is going to be my BIG BAD GUN. Shooting a 500 grain bullet out its going to be elk/bear and the yardage I dont know yet. The same goes with my centerfire rifles. Different cals equal different game and distance.

300g Socom at about 1850 fps Never could find this bullet; don't know where it went.

As we all can see there is a lighter faster crowd and a heavier slower crowd, especially in the muzzleloader world of bullets.arrowing a deer at 35 yards, which is close enough in some cases for the deer to react to the string slap, can not in any way be compared to a conical even at 150 yds.i bow hunted for 10 yrs and a huge part of a deer reacting to the string slap was they were aware of something being out of place, before i even drew the bow for the shot.regardless if you shoot heavy conicals or lighter faster 200-250 gr bullets, the animal never hears the shot until it's to late. in other words dead is dead period lol.a heavy metplate conical IMHO is a lot more predictable than most hollow point bullets, not all but most on the market today.at ranges from 150-200 yds i still believe the heavier say 300-460 is a better choice.i do not care for pure lead hollow point bullets at any range, especially say 0- 50 yds, since they can and do come apart.our military has it's reasons for using the little 223 round, most of the worlds other armed forces use a much heavier bullet.i suppose both have there reasons and again IMHO the heavier bullet is the better choice.in the end a quality well placed bullet of whatever we decide to shoot. will consistently produce dead animals. Ray

I knew one flew off somewhere but the other one X'ed perfectly. 297.6 grains retained out of 300.

Here is the video of the bullet being captured in a bundle of phone books.

Another reason people like a lighter bullet (whether they admit or not) is the recoil. They don't like the bite of the gun. I grew up with large caliber guns with heavy bullets. I'll be that way till I die. And have never lost a animal yet

If those SOCOMs will shoot at 2100fps using smokeless i will be thrilled. :D My GMB54 loves that bullet in a Harvester sabot and shoots as well or better than the 54x50 options. It was the first 54x45X combo that really impressed me and ive shot many 54cals with sabots. 54x50s have been my go to combination for years but mostly with 50-275gr Barnes Expander MZs before i started using BH209. It worked so well i didn't see a need for a heavier option and it expanded great at moderate speeds.

In the Lehighs i still prefer the 275gr-277gr 458s for 50cals. It has performed excellent on paper and media. Im pretty sure it would be devastating on deer to elk sized game. Using smokeless at 2300fps they would likely kill any North American big game.....If i can get them to shoot close to that fps without blowing a sabot it will be my go to bullet.

Im not recoil shy either, One of my favorites is a 325gr FTX at 2300fps (smokeless Savage) or 300gr+ bullets in my GMB54 with max loads of BH209. The little 6.5lb GMB has quite a bit of recoil with some loads. The 50-385gr Rem CLHP is a beast and way over kill for anything i hunt. I just wanted to see how well they would shoot and it took a max load to get tight groups.

Ive let a few friends shoot that load and none wanted a 2nd shot. :p

I guess i'm from the middle school. I like the 300gr Thor with 100gr of BH 209.

Actually, it's not so much that I like it, but my Omega likes it. Good enough for me.



Yes, for those paying attention. I have the Omega back. (long story) I'll hunt with it, and play with the Renegade like before.

Glad you got your Omega back... it really is a very good gun...

I agree. I won't fight it anymore. I'm sure it has elk in it's future, and i'll begin to love it then.

You are going to have an extremely difficult time convincing me of that.

With a hundred yard shot the difference would be between 2 and 3 hundredths of a second. Offhand I have a hard time believing it would be a significant factor.
Art