I said a split second :s1:.... it can make a difference and it will be multiplied as the range increases... A 6" move can be lot.

Granted it would not happen often but in my case it would when I was drawn down on a nice big bull... I know it is mostly in my mind but that why I try to eliminate as many possibilites as I can... That how I justify using an expensive bullets, a great rifle, and really good scope...

Just so you know...

460 gr. Bull Shop 100 yrds .2196 seconds 200 yrds .4771 seconds

300 gr. Lehigh 100 yrds. .1777 seconds 200 yrds. .3807

200 gr. Lehigh 100 .1535 200 .3367

I was taught to respect my elders but......
Like you Pete, I want a quick humane kill and I also like to have what I consider the best equipment to do it. Just a difference of opinion on this particular subject.

Absolutely. My first priority in picking a load is for a humane kill within the distance i'll take the shot.

Yep, but not much of a difference... Of course you know that Doc White would totally agree with you.

And also, after giving this a lot of thought lately, I just sold the last muzzleloader I own that was built for your type of high speed performance, so I don't want y'all to be telling me how wrong I am.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

When you put that DISC up for sale, my very first thoughts were the guy is nutz :bash:... But then I decided no not really he is just looking into the future and positioning himself to be ready to git one of the new ones...:fighting0007:

I just hope this aint you a few weeks down the road... :s7:

mike

It's not a matter of convincing, it's reality.

That should be everyones philosophy. Not sure what your equipment is, but the attitude is good.

Tom,
My equipment is:
My White rifles ranging from a Super Safari in .451 to a Bison in .540 with a couple .504s in between and quite possibly another .451 coming soon.
Then I have my Knight rifles, all early mk-85s and built back when quality was job one at Knight.
Topped off with a Lyman GPR in .54.
Every one of these guns is very accurate and has a bore as good as new and there isn't an animal in North America that I would be lacking in equipment to hunt.
I have owned a couple of disc rifles and they were both very nice to look at and accurate as can be but after shooting the conicals exclusively for a couple years I just don't feel like shooting saboted bullets any more. It just doesn't trip my trigger so to speak. Just a personal thing I guess.
As far as reality goes, your reality is different from mine. I respect yours, You otta respect mine.
Art

I'll have to admit, I would like to shoulder one of them someday. :s1:
No, I have to many fun guns to shoot to be shedding any tears.
Is your Mountaneer on the way to Idaho?
Art

Pretty much sums it up....

I am still thinking... since Tery and I established the new rules about if one "cometh on must goeth" - I am out of corners to store them in...

mike

flounder33,
The internet can be very difficult to communicate sometimes. I try but always fail at it. And i do respect your choices. I don't care what you shoot, you don't care what i shoot.

I try to give information or debate information for the people that don't post. You seem to own alot of White rifles. I think i shot most of them over a couple years in TN. They were all great ML'S, and they all had to be tweaked. I remember Bob Bowers and Underclock years ago bitching about them. I don't even remember but it all happened on HA. My point is just like Encores the Whites needed tweaked as well.

Conical bullets were with out doubt, the worst bullets i have ever seen on Hogs. I watched this for a few years not days. I have never had good success with them in my Flintlock on Deer size game either. If you read the article in Black Powder hunting fall 2005 it talks about some of the multiple shot kills with conicals. Have they changed since 2005????? Dont get me wrong, i know there are plenty bad saboted bullets as well.


I have shot a lot of different bullets, and have watched a lot of animals killed over the years. I have found the Lehigh to be the best by far over any other bullet. That is my findings with well over 25 kills with them. Is there a better bullet? Maybe, i just have not used it yet, or saw someone else using it.

You also mentioned Knight Rifles above. They really got off track on a lot of things. The Super Disc, Extreme, and the Elite had huge gaps in tolerances. I should also mention the LRH as well. That stuff is just in excusable to me.

I was asked the other day why i said the Triumph is better then the Vision. The answer was because it is. Out of the box it is. Here again my opinions only.

I can promise you one thing, i dont say anything just to get something for free. I say it because it is what i have found. If Knight doesn't like it, or Lehigh sorry that's the way it is. You would not believe what i tell them actually. And to be honest they all listen.

flounder33, we have differences no doubt. Adults will decide what's best for them no matter how right or wrong we are.:cool2:

Don't you start now. :guiness:

knight is one great guns but all the guns i have all have to have some twicking needed to be done to them to shot better even some custom gun i have needed some twicking all guns out of the box to me needs twiching but to you it my be fine that just me

XXX2 on that. i have shot deer elk and hogs with a .430 gr T/C maxi from my .54 renegade and can tell you the total devastation that bullet had on those animals was a sight to behold.i have not shot any animal with a NE or BS conical as of yet, but knowing the overall quality is better on these bullets, along with it's larger metplate and seeing results from people shooting these bullets from 25-225 yds. i have no doubt there a better bullet than the maxi.conicals can do whatever any whiz bang bullet is capable of doing and at longer ranges probably better..Ray

Grouse, i don't know what conicals you used on hogs. i can only assume your horrible luck with them was with a hollow point conical at close range.i have shot hogs here in cali with T/C maxi's with nothing but 100% total success and devastation.with a NE/BS i would expect even better performance on hogs, although dead is dead! as far as Lehighs are concerned, from the little i have seen they are no better than a Barnes expander MZ or TEZ in the terminal performance arena. both of these bullets are totally devastating on whatever animal one chooses to shoot with them. and i have never been able to find one sentence stating otherwise anywhere on the internet.i also feel for those longer shots the TEZ with it's poly tip and huge hollow point in .250 or .295 is a better choice than comparable weight lehighs due to better aerodynamics.i would shoot hogs all day any day with a .400 -.460 gr NE/BS or the mentioned Barnes bullets and with proper placed shots all would be stone dead, just as dead as being hit with a Lehigh.. Ray

Again Art, you are spot on. as i mentioned earlier in this thread. arrows shot from bows at extremely close ranges have nothing in common with a conical or
RB for that matter.any animal shot with either would be dead long before any shot could be heard. Ray

It may be a reality in your world, not mine and many others. it is in fact a opinion..Ray

Okay..I won't.

The Whites Rich and Bob were complaining about was the Thunderbolt model. There were serious design flaws in that rifle. Kudos to UC and Bob for all the work they did in trying to revive a dead horse. Their input definately helped,,,somewhat.

There are a few models of White rifles still available for folks who are looking for them.

C'mon Tom........seriously??

I really do and did not want to get in this conversation because there will never be a winner.... the only thing that I would point out is the fact that I believe you to be wrong on this point. Not that it should have any bearing on what you choose to shoot.

If what you are indicating were truly true... then why in the world is every body else that hunts big game here and or anywhere else not shooting big conicals. Granted there are a handful of folks shooting lead and most of the organized traditionalists groups want to require a ML shooter to shoot pure lead while hunting becuase they also know that modern bullets would increase the success rate which would reduce the ML opportunities. Further if what you are indicating is true or even close to the facts don't you believe that there would be a major manufacturer producing lead conicals to meet the demand - there just isn't a demand. Agreed Hornady and other manufactures produce a given amount of conicals, but what percentage of sales do you think they might have vs. the more modern bullets. The demand is not there because hunters across the world believe that copper jacket lead, copper, and brass bullets have better terminal performance across the board.

I shoot .503-460 Bull Shops and they work well for me. I shoot them because I am required to by the State and the lobbiests that help make the rules. I would much prefer to shoot a bullet that I know has better terminal ballistics and I believe is more humane in most given instances.

Does that mean you have to believe what I believe... not even close... that is why I used the "I" in this statement. I is not you or Flounder or Chief or anyone else that prefers to hunt with a conical. It is your right to make that decision.

Now let's go have a :party0005:

I am getting into this a bit late but I do want to touch on a couple of points.
It is my opinion that the boys in the speed gets er done crowd are guys that want a rifle and bullet combo that will be capable of hitting the target at long range. They also want enough whomp at that range to hopefully get the job done. They for the most part have scopes that they adjust for a certain range and they want as little hold over as possible.
The Conical boys are the kind of guys that for the most part shoot open sights and for the most part stay around 100 yards of less. They use them because they feel that they do a better job than the PRB. Their rifles for the most part have fixed sights and the hold over is too much to estimate past 125 yards.

I am in a slightly different crowd. I believe in big heavy conicals. I trust MY paper patched Lee 500 S&W bullets to sink deep. I have seen enough of them hit game now that I am starting to prove reliability. First off this bullet has a wide meplat. The wide meplat hits like a freight train on steroids. I don't know of any ML bullet that provides a meplat as wide as the Lee 500 S&W bullet.
I custom pour these bullets to a specific hardness and the load is tuned to the rifle. Quality control is kept to +-.5 grains. If you want to see a shocker weigh some of your store bought bullets and compare them for weight.
I have seen them enter a big mule deer buck at the shoulder breaking the shoulder and exiting out through the hind quarter at 117 yards. I have seen them plow through deer and antelope form all angles and I have NEVER seen a recovered bullet.

Next the hold over. Unless a guy is using a scope that is built to adjust like a sniper scope your going to have to hold over or use some kind of built in multiple crosshair model to keep from having to hold over. Traditional Iron sights just can't handle long range. The traditional front sight is too thick to aim small. Rear buck horn sights are just a shot in the dark past 100 yards maybe less.
Sabots have been popular to help speed things up to the point that hold over is minimized. But it is still there.

Again I am in a different crowd. I use a front sight that is a BPCR style front sight. It is designed for long range. My rear sight is a Lyman 57 SML. It is field adjustable. So if my range finder says 100 I set the sight at 100 and hold dead on. If the range finder says 135 I set it and hold dead on. If the range finder says 175 I set it for 175 and hold dead on. No hold over or hold under.
I don't need to shoot a super fast bullet for a antelope, or try to set up for elk. I shoot one load for everything. So far it has never let me down. Ron

mike we can debate it until the cows come home.to answer your questions. why does everyone want speed and saboted is like asking why everyone wants the next new whiz bang computer or cell phone that hits the market, or the new BDC scope. i could give you a 100 more examples.what we all need to ask ourselves, are all these new whiz bang products really needed?do they really make phoning someone or using a computer that much better? does a brass or copper bullet really kill that much better than a conical? it's human nature to want faster, bigger, better,easier plain and simple. but by no means are these things necessary for most people. everyone can shoot whatever they like, but in the long run my friend, they don't kill any better than a quality conical.and i assure you the animal can not tell the difference..our high tech world has created a lot of good and a lot more bad IMHO.. i have personally shot deer, elk and hogs with conicals and quality bullets from center fire rifles and the bottom line is dead is dead and those animals didn't move after being hit by any of them. this is fact my friend not fiction.. Ray

Okay i'm done on this one. Batchief grounded me.

Didn't you hear that the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is back in effect?
I suppose I could store that rifle for you until you get an empty corner.
Or you could sell me your Ultra Mag.
:party0005:
Art

Over the years I have been on both sides of the question. I find almost all the points made are true. The bottom line is they both work quite well if you are a good enough shooter and dead is dead. What is difficult for me to understand is why there is always someone trying to bully everyone into doing it their way. I think everyone should concentrate on doing what they do better and let the others do it as they like.

Ron,

I'm not sure why you want a bullet that busts up the front shoulder and exits out the hind quarter?

That's all edible meat. I try to kill the game without spoiling any of the meat I want.

A 300 gr Barnes through the lungs is more than enough.

Big heavy clunkers = nope

Small fast bullets = nope

Middle of those = bang-flop

Amen!!!!!!

emmmm... let me be perfectly clear about this one... The White is untouchable...

and I an reviewing your thoughts and suggestion about 'Don't Ask - Don't Tell' policy...

The other thing that I am considering... I could always indicate that Tom, Dave, or even you sent it to me to 'wring' it out for them as they do not have time...:evil:

Lee i totally agree with you and i do shoot both at the moment, although that will change soon enough. i am moving to the strictly conical corner for many reasons not just one. the biggest reason being it's just plain fun. Ray

I want my bullets to fully penetrate. I don't care what angle they hit at. I want to be able to take the shot I need to take. If you have a trophy buck or bull that is not broad side do you not shoot? Do you wait for the perfect shot every time? in those conditions that is when the guy shooting marginal bullets take the shot and lose the animal or it becomes a drawn out process of tracking and searching. I am in the power camp when it comes to Muzzleloaders. But I am very picky with accuracy. I demand sub 2" groups with peep sights at 100 yards. When you live in a state that outlaws sabots, scopes 209 primers, and pellets. You don't have as many options and you need to think old school.
Ron

I live in Colorado Ron. In 60 years of hunting I haven't lost an animal. I'm careful with my shot placement. I don't just blast away, because I have a big bullet.

We have different styles with I assume similar results.

Peace.

I actually have no experience with kills, using sabots. Now granted, they are accurate, and I believe an excellent hunting projectile. But I have a ton of experience with roundball and conical bullets. But to be fair, I have never take a shot over 80 yards. But I have used roundball and conical bullets to take a whole lot of deer. Now I never had the pleasure to hunt elk with a conical bullet but would have no fear doing so. Also I never hunted a hog although I killed of lot of them for butchering. But I intend to solve that issue this year.

All I can say is while speed is real important to many.. my shots here are close. And when I hit deer with soft lead, either roundball or conical... they go down. I have never shot a deer with a roundball or conical bullet that I could not recover.

I can tell you one thing for sure, not all saboted bullets will give the results you are getting.:wink:

Real men don't wrap their bullets in plastic. :p

:cool2: At least i admit it.:patriot:

Dang Muley! I shoot patched balls about half the time, and sabots the other half. I guess I'm only half of a real man. :s2:

I wonder what the other half is??? Unreal man? Imaginary man? Mythical man? (I know I'm a man of some sort, `cause I just checked to make sure.) :s12:

Lol, i am glad i wasn't drinking coffee this time SEMI!!! Ray

Real Neanderthals like myself make their own bullets. HEHE

Size matters! Big slow bullets kill just as dead as small fast ones. I drive a ford............