I could kick myself!
 

I took the V2 out to the 50 yard range to see how high it shot, at 153 yards i was 2 1/2" high, at 50, i was 2" high! I thought it was a fluke and so i took one more shot, right into the same hole with half a bullet width sticking out the side.

Reloading, i took aim at my big cheeto jug " bulk kind from sams club" I did my usual cement like mixture as its very tough of bullets + the sticky sand wraps up the bullet and makes it easier to find.

Squeezed a shot off and i swear, it was like having shell shock! That heavy 30lb bucket of wet sand jumped straight up into the air and flew back a good 2 feet.

I went to inspect it and recover the bullet, half the face of the jug was blown off and when i picked it up, there was a nickel size hole in the back of it.

I havent had one bullet go through this set up before until today. So the story of these bullets blowing up into tiny pieces is entire BS!

As for the " i could kick myself statement" I KNEW i should have got this one on video! It truly was a sight to see that big jug just lift off the ground.

I used 110gr Blackhorn209, 260gr Harvester PT Gold.

Once i can get a few 5 gallon buckets i will do the test over again but with a safety bucket behind the first for added insurance.

Sounds impressive MD. That would have been nice to see.

What range was your jug at? Have you recovered many of these PT's? I would assume that like most all lead bullets, they'd flatten out pretty good. I hunted with Buffallo SSB 285gr spitzers for a few years. They anchored many deer, but many times, at closer ranges on broadside shots they would turn inside the deer and exit maybe as much as a foot further back than where they entered. I suspect I was driving them too fast.

your experience with the pure lead SSB is common when shooting a pure lead bullet. the PT is a bit harder and electro plated with copper. Ray

today was 50 yards

Thanks for the report MD.

I like what I'm hearing as I'm a PT Gold shooter. This talk of breaking up has me thinking twice but it sounds like it's just talk.

Yep - one shot proves it and wipes out everyone else's experience.

And we know wet sand will cause a bullet to react in a hydraulic fashion. I believe the MAX report is in error too but its not a fair comparison by either one.

Ive turned several Rainier bullets into pancakes with media that does produce the desired hydraulic effect...yes they are made by Rainier for Harvester. Ive called Rainier and confirmed it.

A picture of the PT broken up into little pieces with the biggest piece being 36gr is talk? That picture was the best one he tested.

He used the same gel for the test that the FBI and the bullet manufactures uses.

Max is an independent tester that has to buy all the bullets and equipment to test it out of his own pocket. I've been talking to him quite a bit by mail, and I believe he's an honest guy.

He's stocking up on Thors for a test coming up. He expects good results, because his hunting buddies use them with great results.

My dad always taught me that you get what you pay for. Thors are expensive. PT's are cheap. Figure it out.

Of course there are exceptions. PowerBelts. Expensive junk.

Where are these pics? Not doubting you at all, just haven't seen this report. I went with the PT Golds this past season (my first ML season) because I could get them to shoot the best in my ML (1 MOA) and I didn't have a ton of time to experiment with many different loads (tried 5 different bullets). I had just two kills (140yds & 50yds), but both left large exit wounds (the 140yd kill exit wound was quite massive), neither which would lead me to believe that the bullets broke apart.

The bullets are not all that expensive but neither are Gold Dots (Deep Curls) and there are, oh I dunno, one...MAYBE two folks on this board that swear by them.

Muley if you believe MAX M/L pays for anything, i have some swamp land here in the desert i will sell you (cheap) i have seen his BS in discussions on this site. i don't know if his test was legit or not, but i can tell you this for certain by user reviews, anything shot with the 300 gr PT gold,with a properly placed bullet isn't long for this world.(DRT) Ray

Well, back up what you say, because I can.

To check out Max I asked Terry if he's given Max free bullets, and he said no.

How much did you pay for your swamp land?

only one test so far and it completely destroyed what i shot into. I mix my sand till its like an over wet cement mixture. No bullet, not even a barnes or a nosler has ever made it through the bucket.

I still have to get more buckets and news paper, it looks like i have to beef up my traps with this load combo.

My mixture opens thors perfectly, you just need enough water in it.

Max is full of himself and BS. like i said i have seen him in action on this site, maybe he's not been given free bullets by harvester, but you can bet he has by one of the other bullet companys he"s approved. keep listening to people like him and you will be able to sell your property as swamp land. also did you witness his test? do a search and have a look at bullets fired and recovered from animals.bottom line is web site and blogs make money period. the more traffic the more money. in the end he doesn't do a darn thing for free.. nuff said. Ray

Yes FG, but we know that sometimes Powerbelts will blow right through an animal, and other times it explodes.

What we need for hunting is a bullet that will always expand and stay together with good penetration.

That's a lot to ask from any bullet, and hard to test for all conditions.

I just need to see one failure to stop using the bullet.

Blowing up water bottles, wet sand, and phone books doesn't do it for me.

There's a reason that the FBI and bullet manufactures use gel. I'n guessing it simulates flesh better than any other kind of test material.

my question is, WTH is fbi ballistics gel?

Thanks. You know, given the experience I related, I can hardly believe that's the PT Gold's typical performance in ballistic gelatin. I can't see a bullet that performed so poorly in ballistic gelatin being able to smash through bone, flesh, internal organs and back out through more bone and flesh while leaving a uniform 3" exit hole with no trace of bullet fragment left behind in the body, organs, etc. Maybe the guy had some bricks a few inches into the gelatin.

Next time I go out and shoot, I'll stack some phone books together to see if I can recover the bullet.

My proof is in the picture. It's your job to disprove it. So, far you've done nothing to do that.

While you're at it. Come up with a reason for Max to make the PT look bad?

I talked to Ron Bugg at Harvester. I showed him the pictures of the broken up PT bullet. He really didn't have any defense or reason the bullet did that. He wasn't excited at all. If it was me in his position I would have been all over Max. The only conclusion I can come up with is Ron wasn't upset, because he knows the bullet can do that.

I don't know, but it leaves enough doubt in my mind that I won't use the bullet. It way too much work for me to get into position to shoot an elk. I need to be confident in my bullet.

I dunno. Haven't I read here that Corey makes a good substitute? Maybe he can enlighten us.

Muley Hunter

Have you seen this gel test.... just click on the picture



The test that FG is running is not an accurate test of a how a bullet might perform in animal, it is more of 'torture' test designed to see what extremes the bullet might handle. Normally if they can survice the wetsand bucket test, not nessarily for penetration, but if they stay together they should hold together when used in a hunting situation. Penetration in these torture tests are a secondary measurement. If they come out of the test as a viable project they are tough... Many bullets will not. most lead/copper bulllets will separate in this type medium.

Here is aactual penetration test in gel...



And this is the results on an animal

I don't know. Something is wrong somewhere. I really wanted to like the PT. As it turned out. They weren't that accurate in my gun, so Max's test was the last nail it the coffin for me. If they shot good in my gun. I might look at Max's test a little closer.

I'm happier with the Thors anyway, because I can use them in ML season if i want to hunt that season.

A product called Terasorb is a good substitute. Its dry crystals that absorb an insane amount of water and its used for horticulture. It helps keep soil damp over a long period of time.

It looks like clear cottage cheese when ready for use. The consistency is very similar to some internal organs but not muscle tissue.

sabot..........Good post. What Barnes bullet was that top picture?

Is that you in the B&W shirt?

It was a Barnes 308 TSX IIRC, The weight was either in the 150 or 180gr range.

I can not remember for sure, but I am pretty sure it was a centerfire 308 caliber.

I figured it was. That kind of shock takes some serious speed. Amazing the gel could expand that much with out coming apart.

If they weren't accurate for you, then you have no stake in the game. I have a stake...I like my hunting load and don't want to change. But I am with you...if the possibility exists for the bullet to break apart like that, then I want no part of it. This makes me want to find a suitable substance to shoot them into.

Seeing that pic of the broken up PT Gold has me wondering. I killed two deer but took shots at three deer. The last one I never recovered and hoped really hard that I missed. I was sitting on the ground against a tree when a buck silently appeared to my right side approx 15 yards away. Being right handed, I had NO shot at the deer. He noticed me and stared carefully in my direction, but decided to proceed. As soon as his head was behind a tree (a VERY brief moment), I flipped the gun to shoot left handed. At that point he was only 10 yards away. I mean 10 friggin' yards. The crosshairs were on his heart, and I pulled the trigger. Since I never practice shooting lefty, I suppose I could have jerked the trigger. But I "saw the shot." The last thing I saw before the gun recoiled was the buck's heart.

He spun around and darted back the way he came, white flag flying high. No blood. No hair. No buck. Grid searched that evening, nothing. Grid searched for a couple more hours the next morning and nothing. I want to believe that I missed, but I have never been able to convince myself fully of this, because I "saw the shot," as we always should. That broken up PT Gold has me revisiting this memory. Man, that was gut-wrenching and heart-breaking at the time. Couldn't get it out of my head...lots of sleepless nights wondering if my bullet didn't perform well enough and if there was a suffering and now dead deer somewhere out there because of it.

That was an awesome display of 'Hydrostatic Shock' which some people say doesn't happen, but I am a firm believer in. Other folks have actually said they have seen the animal swell up like that and then deflate.

That goes back to my definition of a "great" bullet...

sabot.......The Barnes may not be the best bullet out there, but it's in the top three, and gets the job done.

The only negative I read about Barnes is the price. Not a reason for me. Not because I have money, but because I want the bullet that works and will pay for it.

There are some Barnes CF bullets with small HP openings that have a problem of not expanding. That doesn't apply to the ML bullets.

Nato.......I did have a stake in the bullet. I even ordered a bulk shipment of the PT. It wasn't accurate when I first shot them. I would have worked with them to see if I could make them work. As long as I was happy with the terminal performance.

Once I saw Max's picture and did some asking around. I bailed on them.

Actually, I bailed after shooting the Thors. I saw no reason to mess with the PT's anymore. Make no mistake though. I wanted the PT's to work for me.

The PT Golds dont shoot that great in my optima but i know enough to realize that a simple sabot swab will take care of the job.

225gr powerbelt shot into my wet sand mixture.


Recovered from Deer.

If I had been able to get the Barnes TMZ's to shoot accurately out of my Omega, I don't think I would have even looked at the PT Golds. If you have any of those PT Golds leftover and you wanna get rid of 'em, I'll gladly take 'em off your hands. :)

By the way, who is Max, what's his blog address and what's his handle on this forum? Thanks.

Try the TEZ's,if you can't get the TMZ to shoot.the .250 TEZ out of my Triumph are tack drivers. Ray

Scratch that. I tried the TEZs. Maybe I should try the TMZs :) I'm really interested in the Deep Curls but last time I ordered from MidSouth, they weren't in stock and I hate to order just ONE thing over the 'net.

Thanks, MD.

BTW, cool pics from both you and Sabotloader.

I know FG. Yet, we've both seen a PB broken up like the picture of the PT that Max showed.

What conditions caused this? I think in the case of the PB it's too heavy of a load at close range. Is there a condition that makes the PT do the same thing?

I agree in your case of a loose sabot you can get it to shoot better. The CR sabot that comes with the PT fit my barrel perfect, and it's one of the best sabots. I don't think i'd have gained much by messing with sabots. I did shoot 90-100-110 gr of BH with no help.

Oh well.:confused0024: