Met a famous LEGEND today at the shooting range!
 

:rant:





While cleaning my Optima i was finally able to get a good pic of the crud ring that Pyrodex, Black powder, Triple 7 and the American Pioneer powders produce when using a primer thats to hot. This isnt bad, normally 1 to 2" of barrel is nothing but a hard crust that makes the shooter swab between shots in order to get the next load down. After 13 shots total, 8 with american pioneer and 5 with pyrodex pellets, i ran one patch down the bore with muzzle foam and snapped this pic. This is the infamous crud ring causes by hot powders and they get REALLY nasty with hot primers and sugar based powders like T7 and American pioneer.

Does that mean BoreCoat still had a crud ring with T7 and an oil free bore?

Hey i have met that guy also!! 777 crud ring?

Borecoat recuded the crud ring so you can get more than few shots down the bore. 13 shots today before the 14th round was impossible to get down, i had to use a smaller hammer and my unbreakable ramrod to push it back out the muzzle.

Ray, It was with a combo of American pioneer 2f and pyrodex pellets. The pyrodex pellets really get nasty with the W209 primers.

Wow, I was under the impression that UBC cured the Crud ring while using T7 also. :barmy:

American Pioneer?????????????????? Your suppose to get 5000 shots atleast before cleaning.

Must have been the Pyrodex.

I wouldn't know only ever used pyrodex loose. but after awhile even loose can be difficult to get a bullet down.which i will be using soon in the wolverine with conicals...already mounted the barrel on a man size stock. just waiting on my scope rail so i can mount my NECG peep on it.. Ray

So THAT'S THE INFAMOUS CRUD RING. Hell that looks alot like my bath tub when I get out of it on Saturday night.

Thats the reason i stopped using T7 and Remoil. I was lucky to off a second shot. Ive been using BH209 all last year and the MX products so i will give T7 a try again. Im curious to see if the combination of JB, range time and the MX conditioner will improve my previous results. 6-9 shots without a bad ring will be fine with me.

If it has not made it better i will try the BoreCoat on my MK85 and see what happens. My old ThunderHawk is much better now with T7 and after years of PRBs, Maxis and BoreButter so maybe there is something to "conditioning" a bore and "break in" but im still skeptical. The old Thunderhawk did get 2 MX treatments after i sold it to the new owner and showed him the correct cleaning procedure. The last time out we/he was getting at least 5 T7 shots without swabbing and groups were "ok".

That reminds me, all new Knight barrels have the BoreCoat and i bought a newer LRH barreled action. The bore is super shiny, i wonder if it had the coating because it felt really good for a "out of the box" barrel without using any JBs.

Gm54-120 All new Knights? When did this start? I hadnt heard this.

Its in the new 2011 online catalog and it says all the models have the BoreCoating. Except maybe the TK2000 shotgun.

http://www.knightrifles.com/pdfs/201...atalog_Web.pdf

The best solution to crud ring is not using the substandard powder that causes it.
I fail to understand why people keep using it when there are powders available that do not cause it then, complain about it.

I know triple 7 is famous for the so-called crud ring but I wouldn't call it a substandard powder. I don't get the crud ring that everybody talks about but even if I did I would still use it because of the performance I get from 777. It is a great powder and not substandard by any means

It is compared to BH 209.

I'll put T7 second on the list.

Not really. I like Blackhorn. But for some having to drill out the hard carbon in the breechplug might be considered as bad as the crud ring. Having to have a certain breechplug design and hot enough primers,as well as cost might cause some to conclude that Blackhorn is substandard. Just depends on the individual.Not only that but I can shoot 777 in every gun I own including my Sidelocks and Blackhorn only in a select few.
Right now Blackhorn is second on my list and 777 is back in first place.

My BP works perfect with BH 209. Cleaning out the BP happens just as bad with T7, because it's caused from the primer. Not the powder.

You might say you don't get a crud ring from T7. That makes you the only one in the world. T7 even has it's own primer to help the crud ring. Which doesn't really work.

Too many years of swabbing between shots to use anything but BH 209 for me.

Price is a moot point for a hunter.

I shoot nothing but real black in sideloacks. As it should be.

Lee, I do not understand why you would label all the other powders 'substandard'. By whos standard are they 'substandard'.
Swiss is a potent powder if you are talking about power as well as the T7 powders. Lots of folks use and like the Pyro's. And there still is a large group of people that can not shoot BH.

Further your complaint about the 'crud ring' you get is not the same 'crud ring' that others get. And when you get down to it, the while T7 can work up a 'crud ring' in the bore, BH works its own 'crud ring' it just moves from the bore to the inside the breech plug. I can get the ring with a damp patch you and others usually use a drill bit inserted in the BP.

Use what you trust and what works for you! One of the things that sets man apart is the ability to 'adapt' and basically we learn to adapt to everything. You and others have adapted to BH, I have shot a good deal of it but I still prefer T7.

777 sucks up moisture and goes bad. Leaves a crud ring, runs the same price as BH209 in my area.

I'll shoot the blackhorn

Never had either of those things happen myself.

As I have said Bh leaves a 'crud ring' also - it is just inside the breech plug... even you know that one.

Only if you leave the lid off for an extended time... I am shooting T7 that bought 4 years ago. and if you would do some of your famous reading you would find that T7 is encased in a film that helps reduce moisture absorbtion.

May be close to the same price where you are but it is also minus 6 onces of powder. Here the price remains $21 for 16 ounces vs $30 for 10.

Over time that adds up to a decent chunk of change... you ought to do the math sometime...

I still have not had a chance to use my BH209 yet. i have always used 777 in my in lines. i will say that i soak my BP with 777 and spend quite a bit of time with a small pipe type cleaner making sure it is clean. i "DO NOT" like the crud ring created by using 777 at all. it is very time consuming and a pain in the @$$. then there is the second shot scenario,that can possibly come into play. when using 777 i just can't see having the time or items available for one.as far as moisture i haven't experienced that problem.i also do not consider 777 to be a substandard powder. then there is the cost difference, which can be substantial to someone who is constantly shooting there rifles. the decision to use any of the various BP sub products is a personal one. Ray

Were $28.00 16oz/ $30.00 10 oz here..the gap is closing here! Ray

$28.99 here in town for T7.

The difference between the crud of the 2 powders is that i can fire 20-30 shots with no problem even in a factory CVA plug without having issues. T7, lucky to get shot #2 down the bore and seated.

I'll take the crud in the plug as it wont slow me down or leave me worrying.

So will I.

I refuse to swab on a hunt.


I'm curious FG. You like to test. Try this.

Measure out 100 gr (volume) loads for a full bottle of BH 209 and T7.

See how many loads you get. Keeping in mind that the 10oz vs 160z debate is weight, and not volume.

I have a feeling BH will still be a loser, because I think it's a heavy powder, but at least we'll have a more accurate measure of how much more BH costs.

I dont have any T7 but supposedly you can get 62 shots out of a 10oz can of BH209. 70ish shots with T7 on a 16oz can.

Here is one comparison - i have one that I did but can not find it right now...

COST-PER-SHOT

Blackhorn 209 comes in a 10-ounce container, retailing for right at $30. Triple Seven powder comes in a 16-ounce container that retails for around $25. Shot-for-shot, loose grain Triple Seven is cheaper to shoot. Western Powders claims that a shooter can get 62 of the 100-grain volume-measured charges from a canister of the powder, meaning that each charge runs about 48-cents every time the trigger is pulled. However, when it comes to Triple Seven Pellets, it will take a 150-grain pellet charge (three 50-gr. pellets) to closely duplicate the velocity of just 100 grains of Blackhorn 209. A box of those pellets (100-count) retails for around $25, meaning the cost of shooting Triple Seven Pellets jumps to 75-cents per shot to get comparative bullet speed.


You get 7000 grains of powder in a 16 oz container of T7 (4375 grains in a bottle of BH). A hundred grain load of T7 weighs about 70 grains so 100 loads of T7 per bottle.

No doubt the pellets are the most expensive thing to shoot. IIRC I figured out once that the triple 7 loose cost about 40 percent of what it cost to shoot pellets, or around 30 cents a shot.

i thought T7 weighed 77.7 grains for a 100 grain load, supposedly how it got its name.

7000 grains in a lb. 7000 divided by 77 equals 91 shots per pound of 100 grain loads. $25 divided by 91 equals 27 cents per shot. If you pay $28 per pound it costs you 31 cents per shot.

You are right!

So that would be 90 - 100 grain loads.

So flounder's cost of $0.27 per shot is correct and the cost of BH is at $0.48 per shot.

I am just an average shooter when it comes to some of the people on here but I use at least 7-8 bottles of T7 per year.

That computes (at your price) $25 X 7.5 bottles = $187.50 per year, and if I were to go to BH I would equal about 12 bottles of BH @ $30 = $360 per year. (actually BH here is right @ $35..) but that is OK. And for somebody that claims to shoot as much as you do that would be a tremendous difference in cash.

But even in all of that I would be the first to admit there are advantages to BH but not enough to justify the difference in my world. I am perfectly comfortable with T7 and its performance.

7 or 8 a year? Why so little? LOL

Because I have to buy it, it does not come to my door gift wrapped.

mine doesnt come gift wrapped either! LOL

I shoot two cases (50lbs) of Goex a year, but that's $14 lb.

BH 209 will be just for hunting. Lucky if I burn 2lbs a year. More like 1lb if I don't experiment with loads/scopes.



When you figure out the difference in price between T7 and BH. Don't forget to figure the truck load of patches you use to keep the crud ring out of the barrel. :biggrin:

Well you are a little off base here. I use one or two patches each range session you just use the same patch over and over. No real need to use clean patches each time you shoot. i am not sure why you would use a new patch each shot, it is certainly not needed.

Hunting - if your bore is treated correctly you should be able to 5 or 6 shots before it would become necessary to run a damp patch.

Often, I have found what you might use in the bore and the combination of the heat of ignition of the powder combines to create the 'crud ring' If you were to use a synthetic oil - free of teflon such as Slip 2000 or Montana X-Treme - you can reduce the effects of the 'crud ring' greatly. Also if you were to use the coolest primers available like Win T7 or the Remington ML primer the 'crud ring' is greatly reduced.

T7 has a learning curve - once you learn it is really a decent powder. Not to say that BH is not a great powder and has it benefits but there is also a learning curve with it.

Mr. Blackhorn and I get along perfectly. We hang out quite frequently. Mr. Triple 7 and I use to fight constantly. I never want to meet Mr. Triple 7 again. He is nothing but a crud to me!

That's OK... just makes that much more T7 for me, hopefully the lack of sales will encourage the price to go down.

I have a case of BH on the shelf and just can not find the need to shoot it other than testing.

sabot............. I'm sorry, but I can't agree. I've burned a lot of T7. I was making a joke abut a truck load of patches, but there's no way in the world I could reuse a spit patch after running it down the bore of T7. I run it down on both sides, and they are caked with fouling. Sometimes it takes two to get the crud ring out. In which case i'll run a dry patch too.
I always use ML primers with T7. It only helps a little. They came out to keep the charge from moving. Not really to get rid of the crud ring. I can't count the times i've gotten the patch stuck in the crud ring trying to clean it out. It also has a habit of gumming up the breech plug threads.

I will never use it again. I see no reason to use it anymore. BH 209 is the perfect powder for inlines. An inline to me is a hunting gun. I put it in the same category as a centerfire rifle. Cost of the load is immaterial.

Now, for fun and blowing smoke. I shoot the Renegade and Hawken. For CAS I shoot two 1860 Colt C&B revolvers, 1866 Winchester 44-40, and double barrel coach 12 ga shotgun. All with real BP.

Cheap shooting is real BP and a PRB. Especially if you cast your own balls and buy BP in volume.

There's nothing cheap about shooting inlines. They become cheap to shoot if you just hunt with them. No idea how FG shoots his inlines so much? He must have won the lottery.:wink:

Muley Hunter

No problems here at all. I would hate think we would have to do the same thing to be right... if so according to one I would need to shoot a CVA.

Heck differences occur all the time.. makes the world go around.

Just do not think we should brash any products just because we do not like it... that is why we have choices... not saying you were bashing T7 either.

I just wish it were possible to show you how trouble free T7 really can be when things are working right.

Heck, I would shoot BH also if the price were right, I am on a fixed income that is going down and prices are going up. I really need to look at the economics of things, especially to be able to shoot when and how much I want to. I just hope I do not ever have to go to that price. I might as well go back to reloading centerfire and shooting those again.

Have fun shooting - i know I do...

mike

I can relate Mike. My main income is SS. I make some money on the side tying flies for a shop. Bores me to death, but I can use the extra money.

I'm actually upset with the price of BH. I think it's a ripoff. I can only justify it by using it for hunting only. I only have 2lbs. My plan is to use 1lb to sort out the gun and loads, and use the 2nd lb to hunt with. Which I hope is a few years. 60 shots is a lot of hunting.

I'm even thinking of quiting CAS. It's really expensive to shoot. It's fun, but I could use the money I spend on it for more hunting gear. All my stuff is getting old.
I need some more modern camo clothing, optics etc.

Anyway, whatever you do. Have fun. :wave:

Muley Hunter

How far from the nearest Cabellas are you? It will go on sale there again for $20 when it does I will let you know if you can get to one. I think I will get a head start notice from a friend.

The price of gasoline is going to kill us, hopefully only for a short while - but if it goes throught the summer I am in real trouble.

I usually go back the work for the Forest Service in the summer, some way they think that I have a lot of experiance and think I am a good hire but their budgets are so slashed this year I do not think that will happen, so I might have to fall back on carpentry or cabinet building in my shop for some supplemental income.

I forget the IMR number at the moment but they make a smokeless powder just like BH, hollow grains of powder, and it sales for $21 a POUND... so the structural manufacturing process is not the reason for the cost. General Dymanics of Canada makes the powder. IIRC IMR/Hodgdon was going to make it but they turned it down and General Dynamics picked it up.