Is it My Fault because I used the wrong Cleaning Method?
 

Well it's that time when one of My Good Buddies that I got into MLing drops by and leaves me His TC Triumph to Clean for Him after the Season Ends.
He knows how much I enjoy Cleaning MLer's, plus He owns a Piece of Property we Hunt that's about 200++ Acres so as a Favor I do it for Him.
He dropped it off today and I Cleaned it tonight. It was shot about 6 times total during the week of Dec 13th thru 21st. Now he uses T7 Pellets and mabey It's how I cleaned the Barrel so any feedback would be well absorbed. I only use Pyro Powder and Pellets so regular ol Dish Soap and Water with a quick Stroke of a Brass Brush usually does it, so that's what I used. Should I have used something different for the T7 Pellets??
Anyway after the Soap and Water Clean and Rinse I did the No13 Bore Cleaner Patches followed by some Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner Patches,,,dirty, dirty, dirty, It would'nt come clean. All the Patches were rusty looking.
I looked down the Barrel and it was Shinny, but the Patches kept comming out Rusty. So I Brass Brushed it again with No13 Bore Cleaner, did the Soap and Water, Rinced it, did more No13 Patches and then the Montana Patches again......Rusty Patches...Finally after about 15 Patches it cleared up and was acceptable to me. So I gave the Barrel a good final 2 Patches coated good with the Montana Extreme BC and stuck a Dry patch in the end of the Muzzle and was done.
I know that the Barrel on the Triumph is Steel and Not Stainless, is this the reason for all the Rusty Patches and having it take so long to finally get the Barrel and Patches to come clean, or was it Me and not using the right (whatever) to clean the Barrel as He uses T7 Pellets?
If it's My Falut I can deal with it, if it's the Steel Barrel than I guess that's to be expected as it's not Stainless. If I cleaned My ACCURA all I'd have to do is run a Brush through it with Soap and Water, Rinse it, run a few patches of MX BC through it and it's spotless. I guess I got Spoiled having the SS Bergara Barrel on My ACCURA.
(BP)

thats the way i do it, all except for the Bore Brush.

Have you friend invest in ultra bore coat. It will save his rifle in the long run.

Clean T7 as you do Pyro or BP... T7 is water soluable.


Just my opinion - skip that dang #13 it is nothing but white water & a bit of soap. Use regular old blue windex with ammonia - far better cleaner and the ammonia is a metal stripper besides the fact that it evaporates rapidly and carries water with it.

Blued steel is a completly different animal than your stainless. It does not take much for unprotected steel in a bore to flash rust. Then when you put the XTreme BC it strips back to bear metal and try to get rid of the rust.

[quoteIf it's My Falut I can deal with it, if it's the Steel Barrel than I guess that's to be expected as it's not Stainless. If I cleaned My ACCURA all I'd have to do is run a Brush through it with Soap and Water, Rinse it, run a few patches of MX BC through it and it's spotless. I guess I got Spoiled having the SS Bergara Barrel on My ACCURA.
(BP)[/quote]

You have not even come close to hurting that barrel any, but it certainly is a different animal than stainless.

I would suggest that you pull the speed breech and run a saturated BC patch in and out of the bore and let it sit for a couple hours - horizontally - then run some dry patches. It will clean up just fine. Also remember when you run a brass brush in a stell bore you do cause a chemical reaction that will make you think the bore is still dirty. I never use a brass bush anymore. Never liked them in the first place I use a Montana X-Treme Nylon bore brush....

http://www.montanaxtreme.com/product...roduct=Brushes

But mostly i just use a cotton bore swab to scrub with...

The gun will be just fine!

You have not even come close to hurting that barrel any, but it certainly is a different animal than stainless.

I would suggest that you pull the speed breech and run a saturated BC patch in and out of the bore and let it sit for a couple hours - horizontally - then run some dry patches. It will clean up just fine. Also remember when you run a brass brush in a stell bore you do cause a chemical reaction that will make you think the bore is still dirty. I never use a brass bush anymore. Never liked them in the first place I use a Montana X-Treme Nylon bore brush....

http://www.montanaxtreme.com/product...roduct=Brushes

But mostly i just use a cotton bore swab to scrub with...

The gun will be just fine![/quote]
I did switch to a (Nylon) Bore Brush thinking it might be the Chemical Reaction with it, the Oil and the Steel Barrel, but I got the same results. I use a Nylon Brush Myself, but figured the Brass one would get the Rust out better. I did'nt use the Windex Patches like I normally do when I swab while shooting, I shoud have. The Only reason I used the No13 was because I had it and figured I'd try it.
The last 2 Patches I ran through the Barrel were saturated good with MX BC, I'll leave it overnight and then do a few Dry one's that a couple of MX BC's again.
I have a Half a Dozen Cotton Bore Swabs but Honestly I have never used one, they come in the Packs with the Nylon or Brass one's. I guess Im gonna give one a try next time and see how it does.
As long as I now know that T7 is Water Soluable and Im using the right stuff to clean it. Oh, and I did use Cold Water for the Rinse insted of Hot knowing that it should keep the Flash Rust to a Minimum, but I instantly ran a patch through it and it rusted that quick.
At least I know I saved the life of His TC, He's a Great Guy but when it comes to taking care of a MLer it's just not his bag. He managed to Break off the Trigger Guard on it this Season when somehow he got a Spent Primer caught in the Action and when He tried to close it, it would'nt so he (BUFFED IT) and forced it closed and it broke. We call Him Bufferd Pusser from the Movie Walking Tall, He's a Animal and always Man Handles Things, He's a Heavy Equiptment Operator so you get the point.
The best one was after he Broke off the Trigger Guard and had to use a Pair Of Vice Grips to open it he had a shot at a Deer and it would'nt fire! There's a part that with the Trigger Guard on it pushes a part to enguage the Trigger, well with it broken it did'nt do it and he pulled the trigger and nothing!
All we heard on the Walkie Talkie's was (I Hate this $#@^&* MLer) and we all stopped him from going into the Barn and taking a Chop Saw to it!
Oh and it's up to me to call TC to get a replacement Trigger Guard for it. I Promised Him I'd take care of it, otherwise it would be sold as Scrap after the Chop Saw had it's way with it. He's got No Patience, but we all Love Him.
Anyone know how I can get ahold of TC?
(BP)

Breechplug

Just opposite - always use hot water... in fact my last rinse is with boiling water....

That is going to be the tuff part - they are probably closed now and the first week of January... then they will be making the move to their new location.....

contact by phone is the best if you can catch them or anyone there.... emal to them is always iffy...

http://www.tcarms.com/customerService/contact.php

So your saying that Hot water is better because you get Less Flash Rust then with Cold Water? I thought Cold would prevent the Flash Rust better.
I know TC is Closed for the move, Im in No Hurry, My Buddy only uses His MLer once a year during the Late ML Season, He's not like us, so I have all the time I need to get it fixed.
(BP)

No, think about it... something really hot drys much faster because of the heat. Cold drys very slow and allows rust to begin. That is why I end with boiling water and some dry patches + I use compressed air to blow the barrel out.

cool...

I always use boiling water when I clean a blued or rusted barrel. The heat from the boiling water drys very fast. Just be careful when you go to grab the barrel or you can get burned. I always pick the barrel up with a rag to prevent from burning my hand. Tom.

I go right from the rince weather it be Hot or Cold right to the Patches, so it should'nt matter. But yea I see your point in using the Boiling Water. I guess having a SS Barrel has me spoiled.
Now I also noticed if I Hunt with a Fouled Barrel I can go longer between cleaning it then with a Steel Barrel. With the SS Barrel I can go a week or more or mabey even longer without cleaning it befor I shoot it or clean and reload it. With a Steel Barrel I seldome go longer then a few days to be safe.
But since I've been using Montana X-Treme Bore Conditioner it helps extend cleaning life by days compared to when I just used other oils.
(BP)

Sounds to me like your friend had not really cleaned that barrel well for awhile and you had to work to get it clean!

I too use boiling water. There is no way you are going to remove every bit of water with a dry patch. But if the barrel is very hot, those spots will evaporate quickly. I lean mine against on outside wall, pour boiling water down it, then immediately run dry patches down it (while holding it with an oven mitt).

777 is corrosive and while it is not normally going to show much from being left set a week after shooting it it most certainly can if the circumstances are right so can Blackhorn. The problem may well be in not cleaning it after shooting.

I agree lemoyne,,,,,but My Buddy Refuses to give me his MLer after he shoots it to clean it.
A long story short......
I have another Buddy who Hunts with us, he believes he know's everything there is to know about MLer's, shooting, cleaning, ect. Well he has a TC Encore and swears that TC Claims that the Breechplug in His TC is Guaranteed to Fire Everytime, 100% of the time without being cleaned (so far it has and I cant believe it) He only cleans His MLer at the end of our 9 Day Season.
Anyway he tells my other Buddy he does'nt have to clean His MLer either untill the end of the Season since it's so short and he believes him. There both die had slug gun and rifle hunters and MLer's are just a way for them to hunt 9 more day's. Im the only one who uses nothing but a MLer for all my hunting and Im tired of telling them what's right and what's wrong because it goes in one ear and out the other, so I gave up.
I've told this one befor and I have to tell it again.....as I said I got all My Hunting Buddies into MLer Hunting. Back when we had to use nothing but a Patch and Round Ball they watched me load and ram the ram rod down the barrel to the ball was seated good and the ram rod would bounce off the ball and out of the barrel when it was good and seated.
So no matter how hard I tell them that it's wrong they Insist on doing this to there Bullets and Pellets when they load there MLer's. They throw the ram rod down the barrel so hard it crushes the bullet tip (im sure) and crushes the Pellets too. They have there ram rods marked with a mark so they know how far they have to get it down to befor it's seated right (in there minds)
I showed them many times how to just push the sabot down onto the pellets untill they can feel it and then give it just a little more push and they'd be fine but they dont believe me, so I gave up.
I guess that's why My one Buddy who gave me his Triumph to clean missed 3 or 4 Deer this Season with it. I believe it's because he crushes the pellets and possibly the bullet because of the way he loads and never has a consistant load (one that's the same every time and loaded the right way).
What's your thoughts on how they load with Pellets?? does'nt smashing the ram rod down onto them cause them to break up and possibly cause inconsistant shots. or does'nt it matter if the pellets are broken up or not because it's still the same amount of powder, just crushed up? And this also has to have an effect on the Bullet's point too right?
(BP)

Breechplug

Shoot, Ron I'm using T7 and i do not clean mine till the end of the season either and that could be 2 months maybe 3 months. but again I have a had a lot of practice doing this so I know it works for me.

I shoot the gun pre-season, run a windex patch and a Xtreme patch load and go hunting. If I shoot the rifle during the season start the same process over again.

The only way i would ever put water (Boiling) in any gun barrel if it was to get rid of plastic fouling. All those cleaners like T/C 13 and others contain water. Water and metal are not a good combination.

99% alcohol and Murphy's oil soap are a pretty good combination. 70% alcohol and 30% Murphy's oil soap mixed together. Pretty cheap to.:party0005:

bore scrubber works great with BH209. For the other powders i like the hoppes black powder solvent for bore foam.

Grouse45

and I do exactly the opposite, Every ML I have is cleaned with windex, hot soap and water, rinsed with boiling water each time I do a strip clean or season ending clean and storage. Doesn't matter whether it was shooting T7 or BH.

Interval cleanings when the gun was shot with BH i do not use a water product, but again at storage time I do. The Boiling water is the only sure way of stripping all residues from the bore.

Ya you and me do the same Mike, I guess we know what to do and what not to do. So what do you think of the part where they crush the Pellets, does it matter? crushed or uncrushed? for a consistant shot?
(BP)

All this is fine and dandy if done properly. Why do you think Breechplugs gun is full of rust? I can tell you why, it was never dried properly and preserved right. You need to use alcohol to suck that water out of the barrel. And i also prefer forced air. Hair dryer works fine for me. But the air compressor is better.

Putting oil in a barrel that still has moisture in it, the moisture will win. The bore will rust. Period

Sabotloader, i do agree your method is very effective. You proved that to me awhile ago. But most people will not take the time and make sure the bore is dry. :wink:

Grouse45

You are absolutely correct.... it is HUGE that you get the bore dry before you try to protect it. And as someone said dry patching may not get it done.

This is why I only do the heavy water treatment at the house where I have the things I need to get the job done.

During the season season when I will use Windex and dry patch - that is the reason the Montana X-Treme Bore Conditioner goes in the bore... The Ether Alcohol contained in the product acts as the evaporator.

:confused0024:HEY HEY HEY NOW.......BREECHPLUGS MLer's (ALL OF THEM) LOOK AS THEY DID WHEN HE BOUGHT THEM, BRAND NEW INSIDE AND OUT .The MLer in this Post in Question is My Buddy's who gave it to me to clean for Him, his barrel was the one Rusty after the clean.
I take very good care of My MLer , too good. After I use the Soap and Water and Rince I let My SS Barrel Dry Out, then Windex Patch or Alcohol Patch it then Oil it. My SS Barrel is 10X Easier to take care of then the Steel Barrel from the MLer of My Buddies (Triumph)
And I finally did get (HIS Triumph's Barrel) Looking like New Again, it just took a little work.
Had to clear that one up Grouse:happy0001:
(BP)

Didn't want to be known as "StuckBreechplug" huh? :s2:

You got that right Semi! And nothing against Grouse Im sure he just read it wrong:)
(BP)

Actually, I think he was talking about the guy that owned the rifle.

But, then again if I could find somebody around here to clean my ML's for me - guess I would do the same. I really have tried to teach Terry how to do this project - but she remains sted fast un-interested. She just hollars something about cleaning up after myself - especially in her kitchen....

I don't think i read it wrong. It sounds like you take care of your buddies ML for him? And if that's the case, it's your fault. :wave:

I get the same from My Wife Connie, She thinks the Kitchen is all Her's even though I do All the Cooking. But then I remind Her that it's (Half Mine) and Im Cleaning My Mler on My Half of the Kitchen. But somehow She thinks that My Half is the Other Half, were working on that one, Ya Gotta Love Women!
If it was'nt for Us Men our Wifes would'nt have anything to Clean up after.
(BP)

Breechplug

Well I'll tell you right now - I am not showing post to Terry - the war would be on!

Yep Your Right, You got me on that one.......what this all boiled down to was His Triumph has a Steel Barrel and the Steel Barrel is much more subseptable to Fash Rust then My SS Barrels. It took about 25 Patches to clear up the Steel Barrel vs about 4 Patches for My SS Barrel. Plus it was Dirty as Heck!
Also I thought Mabey it was the T7 Pellets that He used, but it was'nt........So Yes it's OL BP's Fault.
But you cant Blame it all on Me...in the 9 Days of Our Late ML Season He shot it about 10 times to make sure the Scope was still on, then shot it another 6-7 times in those 9 Days without ever once running a Patch down the Barrel, then I got it 5 Days after the Seasons end to clean.
If it was up to Him he'd of just put it back in His Gun Case Un-Cleaned untill Next Season. So I think I did it a Favor and Saved it's Life.
(BP)

Breechplug,

You don't need to explain. I've made these mistakes on my own ML'S trust me. :D

I have 6 muzzleloaders with blued barrels and to be honest I have not had the problems with flash rust you are talking about and I clean them in about the same way you do. I do agree that it is important to get rid of all the moisture before oiling. I am guessing a lot of this rusting in your buddies gun was taking place before you got your paws on it.
I have a little mancave with running water to clean my guns in so I don't need to use the kitchen.
Happy New Year to all of you!

yea it's Best to keep this a Secret, from Terry and Connie. I may talk Tough now but if Connie saw this she'd own everything, even My Half of the Kitchen and Probably Half of My Mler's.
(BP)

Dont let sabotloader kid you. He is spoiled trust me.

Yes your right about the Abuse Part of the MLer befor I got it.Ya know I was just thinking.......I live in the Country and have Well Water, it does turn the Shower (rusty color) after a while and has to be cleaned. So I'll just blame it on the Hard Water and call it a Day.
Happy New Year to you also flounder!
(BP)

You guys sure are henpecked. Grow some spine, will you. I've laid down the law to Rosemary, my bride of 43 years. I expect her instructions to me to be clear and explicit or else I will not follow them.

See that is the problem with Terry and I... early this morning I asked her what here schedule was today, it is our aniversary today and my plan was to aked to go out to dinner tonight, some place other than McDonald's... she told me her schedule, but it was NOT in a clear and explicit to me.... so later in the morining after I had gone out in the cold, started her car to warm it up for her, scraped the windows - cleaned the wipers and all of those good things - she cam out to go to her first deal of the morning, so I asked again what is your schedule? Calmly but in one of those firm voices... Mike I just told you my schedule - do you not listen to anything I say? then she threw a snow ball at me - they are quite convienent to find here these days - unlike some other places in the US.... Oh ya the schedule.... she has a lunch date with the girls to celebrate one of them birthdays - I forgot which one - I know it is not Terry's - then she will be here in the afternoon and we are going to dinner this evening - Applebee's I think....

I am glad that I outlined her schedule to her - she might have got lost...

:happy0157::happy0157:If you wait until after 9pm you can get the half priced appetizers at Applebees.

I think Men and Women Speak different Languages, our's is much easier to understand.
Happy Anniversary Sabotloader and pass it on to Terry. It's My Sieter and Brother in Laws Anniversary today also, Thank's for the Reminder!
New Year's Eve is My Birthday and I guess were going to Applebee's too, I cant wait to get that little Clock that you have to hold onto for a Hour untill it's time for you to be seated. Then it's off to the Reservation to the Casino to Blow some Money then to the Club to watch the Ball Drop and for Breakfast.
Oh Speaking of Applebee's.......one time I was in there Wearing My Mossyoak Cap and I had a Lovely Old Lady YELL at me for wearing a Cap in there....Hummm I thought as I looked around at all the Men wearing Football and everything else Caps and pointed it out to the sweet old lady that it was a Sports Bar we were in and I was'nt the only one wearing a Cap, she said nothing and proceeded to put on Her (Babuchska, a Polish thing Polish Women use on there head to protect there Hair) and sit and wait for the rest of her party to finish up. I just Smiled at Her and said nothing. I know not to make Polish Women Mad as My Mom is 100% Polish and when I was little My Polish Grandma and Mother would talk in Polish when they had to say things that wer'nt ment to be heard bu us young Kids, and it did'nt sound good. So it's better to leave some things alone.
But I think I'll wear My Mossyoak Cap again on Friday to Applebee's, it's My Good Luck Cap and hopefully it'll be even Luckier at the Casino.
(BP)

I did not know that! hummmmm... I think they still have the 2 for $20 thing also... but I do not want to be to cheap! You know like a McDonalds or Wendys...

I did offer to make make my world famous one pan hunting camp complete dinner for her - she was not impressed - that is why we are going out.

Breechplug

Oh jeez Ron! Polish??? with your personality???? Connie has got to be a saint...

Happy Birthday when it gits here....

I cant believe Terry did'nt go for the One Pan Hunting Camp Complete Dinner, Women!
Yea I actually wanted to go to a Nicer Place for Prime Rib but all the Good Places are all booked up. So I'll just get the 2 for $20 for Me as it takes that much to fill me up, there Steaks are small.
Thank's for the B-Day Wish.
(BP)

Mike what's the One Pan Dinner consist of? sounds like something I might want to make.
(BP)