The Anti-BH209
 

Well, I'm probably going to hear how wrong I am from some people for posting this, but here it goes:

It seems like a good number of recent posts have been on how to get BH209 to ignite reliably. All sorts of fixes - from custom breech plugs, to drilling out breech plugs, etc, etc. So I got to thinking about the advantages vs. disadvantages of BH.

From my point of view, there aren't many advantages, and several disadvantages to BH 209. Before I go into them, keep in mind that I never use more than 110 grains of powder, and tend to shoot lighter bullets.

I normally shoot Triple Seven FFFG, so I am going to compare BH 209 to it.

Advantages of BH:
-No swabbing between shots
-Non-corrosive

Disadvantages of BH:
-Much more expensive - $30 for 10oz compared to $22-25 for 16 oz T7

-Problems igniting- need tight fitting sabot

-Problems igniting- need proper breech plug. From what I understand, there aren't that many ML's that will shoot BH reliably right out of the box with no modifications. I understand that there are a few models that do, but some of those require you to carry around a drill bit to clean out the breech plug every few shots. Sounds like a pain to me. Almost as much of a pain as swabbing between shots:rolleye0011:

-Hard to find in some areas


Sabotloader has done a fair amount of chrono work with T7 and BH209, and from what I gather, T7 3f is equal to, or even FASTER than BH209 with loads up to 110 grains. I understand that some of you use 120 - 140 grains of BH209 to achieve some near-smokeless velocities, but the vast majority of people do not use that much powder.

So I guess maybe I don't get it. I can see how the non-corrosive nature of BH is attractive, but T7 isn't all that corrosive either. I've left a rifle dirty after shooting T7 for up to 48 hours before cleaning, and have never had a speck of rust. So unless you are the kind of person that only likes to clean your guns once a year..... again, don't see much of an advantage.

I'm not bashing anyone's choice, I'm just sort of interested in why BH209 has become such a craze it seems. Maybe someone can enlighten me?

I have come to the same conclusions. I am going to do some more experimenting with the bh though. First I am going to get the lehigh conversion for my disc elite.
Some people get a really bad crud ring with the triple 7, it has not been a big problem for me. The main thing with me is my budget.

Here is my 4 cents;

One: With 777, I must swab between every shot. I cannot even get two shots off using my t/c omega with 240g xtp's unless I put my entire 300lbs behind it. As long as I swab all is well. Nothing like needing to use a swab puller because the cleaning jag lossses the patch.

Two: No matter what I do my plug locks up. Teflon tape, grease and re-grease till the cows come home and yet, when it comes time to clean the gun after a day of shooting, I will need Jeff Gordon's pit crew to air wrench the breech plug off. It was only 5 weeks ago that I almost failed to remove the plug and was ready to head to the gun smith. This erks me because my gun is cleaned immaculately after each shooting session.

With Blackhorn 209, I made 25 shots in a row, with no swabbing. The 25th load was as easy as the first.

10 days of sitting in my Omega during gun week did not hurt it either. No rust after letting it sit after shooting and the plug came out like butter.

Three: Easy to clean. At first it was a pain to use gun solvents to clean when I was used to using water. But my last cleaning of my muzzy from 209 took 15 minutes and that included the plug.



D

oldsmellhound

One point... Western Powders has backed away from the non-corrosive statement. Chemical testing indicates the BH does has a small of Potassium Nitrate and Sulpher. So it's residue can work on your barrel also.

It is a lot safer than other subs and I believe it is less corrosive than T7 which is also as you say...but T7 isn't all that corrosive either. I've left a rifle dirty after shooting T7 for up to 48 hours before cleaning, and have never had a speck of rust.

Shoot! I leave my bores uncleaned all hunting season after shooting at the beginning of the season. I call the bore semi-clean as I run a windex patch after shooting a dry patch and then a very lightly oiled Montana X-treme BC patch - reload and go huinting again...

I believe that i would be in the same life boat as you cast adrift by the BH shooters, even though I have a case of it here that I got on sale at Cabelas for $20 per jug... But I still shoot T7...

I guess I never realized people had that many problems with T7 freezing breech plugs up. I always just put some anti-seize goop (same I use for spark plugs) on the threads before each shooting session, and I've never had issues.

Maybe I'm also blessed with the swabbing issue as well. I usually can load and shoot 3 times before I need to swab (though for best accuracy I swab between every shot).

But if you are having that much trouble with T7, then BH makes more sense....

To each their own is why we live in such a great country. If you like 777 or pyrodex or real BP that is what you shoudl shoot but for me BH 209 has been the best thing that has come along since penicillin. BH 209 has made me want to shoot a ML again. I shoot 30 + shots and never swab between shots and accuracy stays exactly the same through each shot. You do not have to run a drill bit in your BP after every few shots that's just not true, I do not run a drill but through mine until I have shot 30 or more shots or when I clean it if I haven't shot that many times. I clean it after I am through for the day with a couple of patches in Hoppes, my BP slides right out with absolutely no hassle and the gun ends up clean as new and I am done. It shoots absolutely great out of my TC Pro Hunter both @ firing every time and grouping @ around 1" at 100 yds. I would love to see just how many more people would shoot BH 209 if it was cheaper?:wink: In the future I am expecting more of the ML companies to be producing their ML to shoot BH 209 right out of the box. If they have any sense that is.

To each his own. I despise 777, I had to scrub my guns for what seemed like forever to get the crud-ring out, I go out to shoot and my time often limits how much I get to shoot With Blackhorn that's what I do.
On price, I have seen some of those ridiculous prices like at Bass Pro but have been able to get it at the same price as 777 or less by buying on sale and by the case over the Internet from Powder Valley.
You are pretty close to right on the velocity my own checking finds a slight advantage with Blackhorn when a tight sabot and enough wad pressure is use but at 110 gr and below there is not much difference; however I use up to 140 in one of my guns and I do find a big difference there.
I also find a difference in pressure the 120 gr load of777 shows the same pressure as a 135 gr load of Blackhorn with a 250 or 300 gr bullet and a bigger difference with a lighter bullet. If you did not know it Blackhorn is a progressive burning powder which means that with lighter bullets you have to put in enough powder to reach the efficient burning pressure before it becomes efficient and generates its full energy potential.
So what it boils down to is everybody needs to use what they like best, that's what keeps all of our suppliers in business and that helps the sport.

Been reading all the stuff about BH on this and other sites. Talked with several hunters who missed out on old mossy horns when their BH fizzled. It ain't for me.

777 is a good consistent powder and i still have some of it on hand. 777 also has some characteristics that i do not like: The crud ring, the tendency to seize the breechplug and swabbing after every shot.

Been using Goex Pinnacle for awhile and i'll stick with it. Somewhere i have a target with a 10 shot group that was fired at 100 meters without swabbing. It measures just over 2.25". Bought several cases of Pinnacle at bargain prices. Its all in Army 20mm ammo cans along with lots of military dessicant.

To each his own of course. I shoot BH out of my Genesis and 700ML (which has a non-approved BP by the way) without any modifications. I have probably shot my last load of 777. BH for my inlines and Goex for my sidelocks.

• I have no problem getting it to ignite. Never have.
• My breech plugs never get stuck anymore like they used to with 777.
• No more crud rings (though, I didn't get a lot of anyway)
• I enjoy shooting a lot more.
• I can get it locally for about $28 out the door.
• I don't fear rust if I can't get it cleaned immediatly.
• More accurate and consistant than 777 for me.
• It smells better too :s2:

I shot BlackHorn 209.

I really liked the way it shot.
It was accurate, powerful, and all the other things so often talked about.
But

It clogged my breech plug. At the time I did not even know that was a problem. I was unable to clean the thing. I never thought of drilling it out. So I threw it away. I never experienced another problem because I had shot off all the blackhorn 209..

I had to use solvent to clean the rifle. Solvent is much more expensive then soap and water or even Windex. And the rifle really did not clean any faster then any other powder. Although that might be my fault. Because if you ever saw the detail I take when I clean a rifle, you would understand.

It is more expensive. And cost can be a big factor to me. I like to catch my powders on sale and then buy them by the case. That way I save money.

As for powerful.. I never thought Pyrodex RS or Triple Seven, even Goex did not have enough power to get the job done. Were I hunt, I am not shooting 200 yards so maybe that little extra boost BH gives don't mean nothing. Triple Seven I always considered the powerful powder.

With Pyrodex RS I can always get off more then one shot. I have shot as many as five out of an inline before the fouling concerned me. And out of a Traditional rifle, I have shot a lot of times with just about any of the powders.

Blackhorn is not a local powder. So if I run out, I am out. Unless I want to suddenly get a large amount to off set the hazmat fee. With the other powders I can got to the sporting goods store and get a pound.

I am not saying that BlackHorn 209 does not have its place in this market, because it does. Too many of you are showing just what a good powder it is. Granted it has some quirks, but then all powders have quirks. The best thing is we use what is best suited for our needs. That might be BlackHorn or then it might be Goex or some other brand.

Enjoy shooting and shoot what you like.

I like the BH 209. It has never had any ignition problems out of the 3 different muzzys that I shot it out of, TC Pro Hunter, Omega and a Knight Disc Elite. All three guns cleaned up quickly and shot different loads in each with great results. I'm not having any problems with getting the powder either, around here it runs between 22-25 a jug.

Amen to that! Well said.

We are blessed with a wide range of powders and projectiles to choose from. Those who came before us 150 years ago had one powder and one projectile. They had to make it work.

It's sad that Black Dot never made it to the market place.

I guess since I've shot flintlocks since the 70s I don't see the problem with Goex FFF...I still use this in my flinters and my Knight...I've tried 777 and had to lap the barrel to get rid of the crud ring...I've used Pyrodex when I could catch it on sale but didn't see any advantage of it over Goex...I'm too tight to pay for 209...I figured if I didn't want to have to clean a muzzzleloader I'd get a Savage and shoot smokeless...

Guess I'm just bass ackwards, I'm still using XTPs as well... :)

For me that was the deal maker for BH 209. I would not have switched from 777 because of swabbing alone. It was the freezing of the BP that caused me despair. I began to dread shooting because I knew that in a short while I would have to try and loosen the BP.

It was ridicules two see to grown men; one holding the gun, and the other putting his weight behind the ratchet trying to break free the BP.

What also drove me crazy was getting my fingers pinched or striking the top of the rear stock when it did release.

With BH 209 I could almost take the plug out with my fingers after 25 shots in a row.

Downside: The plug cleaning. I use a 1/8 drill bit for buildup in the flash channel. I do this after 25 shots. And I let the plug sit in a bottle of t17 from tc to loosen all the carb buildup.


D

BH209 eliminates all the grief you get with other powders. I have always said, you can achieve pretty much the same performance with 777, but BH209 is the only way to go for me.

I am done with the stuff. Twice I had problems getting it to fire. Once I fired 3 primers through it and no go. The other it hang fired with the second primer but finally went bang. Thank goodness it wasn't when hunting and I will not go out hunting with a lack of confidence in my equipment. Gun was properly cleaned, correct type of primer, correct style and clean breech plug, etc. and I know some of you will have your doubts about all of that and that is OK.

Cleaning isn't all it is all cut out to be either. The gun cleans up OK but it is all but impossible to clean the breech plug after using the stuff. I expect to see shiny stainless steel when I am done cleaning it and while that was easy with all other powders I have ever used is a bear with this stuff. Tar stuff that need brushed, scraped, drilled... no thanks.

I will miss the two finger breech plug removal and no need to swab between shots but I will at least be confident the gun will go "bang" when I pull the trigger.

BH209 is the worst thing ever invented. I hope everyone stops buying it and it goes down to 15.99 a can...............:confused0024:

I cant imagine having to go back to 777 and swabbing between shots.....if i never use windex again it will be okay with me.........

All powders have their place.

I love 209 for hunting. Too pricey just to play around with.

I don't find it cleans up any fast than T7. Don't care much for the smell of Hoppes #9.

Don't mind swabbing between shots, just part of muzzleloading and if I'm messing around on the range, so what.

Will i keep using it... yup, for hunting cause I have a damn accurate load worked up with it and easy reloading in the field.

in the past i was never much of a muzzleloader, but i bought a tc prohunter last year and decided to get back into it. I tried bh209 for the first time a couple weeks ago after reading so much positive press on it and i have to say i really love this stuff. I shot pyrodex pellets in the past, and the one thing initially i didnt like about 209 was that i had to deal with loose powder, but i got over it and i havent looked back. So far ive had zero problems....ignition, cleaning, breech plug, consistency. Im sure as i do it more ill find some cons, but im really loving the stuff so far.

I have shot 3 jugs of 209 thru my Genesis and not one iota of any
problems plus it shoots sub moa.

I have an Encore PH frame with a Bergara barrel and I have had few issues with BH 209. If the sabot is a looser type, forget ignition. But having shot 2 bottles of the stuff now, I have worked out any small issues due to the range time I have put in. I have to say that the pros outweigh the cons by a far margin for me.

With that said I would have no problem shooting 777 or pyrodex from the gun either, but I know I will have to swab between shots. Not a big deal. All of them have their place.

Firt off I need to say I have not used BH-209. The price of it alone has turned me completely off of it. I no longer use T7 becuase of the hygroscopic properties. I never had any problems cleaning with T7-I just didn't like the properties of the powder. It did shoot very accurately. But it did need cleaned between shots to maintain that accuracy. And in my case I mean cleaned, not swabbed.

I think the tight bore is more a function of mfrs. preparing their firearms and sabots for the use of 209 primers. The sabot needs to be tighter in the bore or the 209 primer will simply blow the load out of the barrel. Thus changing the volume, and thus the acuracy.

Either you need to clean a rifle with BH-209 or you don't?? If you have to clean a rifle then how much longer can it possibly take to clean a rifle shot with BH-209 and straight BP?? Really?? How much longer??

I can easily shoot my rifle 30 times with BP. I can't see how cleaning time can be that much different with BP insted of BH if you stil have to clean it. How many minutes of your life are you loosing?? Tom.

Over the last year I've shot up 24 pounds of GOEX, a pound and a half of Pyrodex, and about half a pound of T7, so you can pretty well figure out what I like.

I bought a canister of Blackhorn two years ago. Still have half of it left. Might try it again some day but don't have a lot of incentive to do so.

Call me a nut if you want, but my opinion is GOEX is the most useful and forgiving powder out there.

I have'nt nor will I ever use BH, why, because what I use works and works well. To me it seems many (and Im not dissing anyone who uses it) use it because they want the easy way out of shooting a MLer. For me a MLer has to be cleaned, swabbed and taken care of. If I do this then there's no problems. Mabey im Old fashioned but I still dont need a Powder that makes it easier to do the things that are easy to do anyway with just a small amount of more time.
If you get Corrosion in your MLer, it's your own fault not the Powders, if you have to Swab Between Shots, so what did it break your arm, and if the BH did'nt Ignite and you lost a chance at a Good Buck, Oh well at least you did'nt have to Swab between shots and worry less about cleaning and corrosion.
For me BH's advantages dont overcome it's disadvantages when you really think about it, you may gain one thing but lose more.
(BP)

Well, i, um, hmmm, can't think of any disadvantages. Since the time it was available to purchase, i have been using BH, and only BH. In that time, i haven't stumbled across any of them 'disadvantages' you write about. It is used in my Accura, my Omega, my Triumph, my Omega, and my V2. It works good when it is cold, hot, wet, snowy, etc. It has led to the demise of maybe.........................18 deer, and 2 prairie dog............................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................I give up, i have been sittin' here for awhile, but i can't think of any disadvantages.

I assume then (and I am not dissing you over this) that you walk to work instead of driving, wash your clothes down at the river instead of using a machine, shoot a flintlock instead of an inline? If it will work just as good for you or in some's cases even better why wouldn't a person use it. If I have two or more products that will work for me but one of those products makes it easier on me then you can bet I am using the easier one. If your not dedicated enough to do everything aspect of your life the hard way and not use anything that makes doing anything easier then why just MLing? Just my humble view of your post. I mean I could care less if you ever try BH209 so nothing personal.

Somebody get this man some help. Quick!! :D Check out Gunzilla. It has a very low, not unpleasant odor and it is non-toxic. It is not all I use but I use it most of the time on all of my firearms (many times I use it as my lubricant and protectant as well).

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I just started muzzleloading this season, I have only used BH209 and I see absolutely no reason to use anything else.

I shoot the inexpensive TC Omega Z5 and my longest single range session so far was 40 shots. I never swabbed a single time, and I never had to use a drill bit on my breech plug during the session. As stated by others, the last shot was as easy to load as the first. I also did not, and have not, experienced a single ignition problem. Bang on time, every time. I also have had no problem with looser-fitting sabots. There is not a sabot (that I know of) any easier to load than the Harvester black crush rib, and I experience tight groups with it. The breechplug has never been difficult to remove, including the time I forgot to lubricate the threads before reinstalling it. I also have left a load of BH209 in my gun for 3 weeks and it went bang when I needed it to.

I cannot comment on how easy or hard it is to clean BH209 in comparison to GOEX, 777, Pyrodex, etc. Cleaning the barrel is no easier or more difficult than cleaning that of a centerfire rifle. And of course, it depends on your definition of "clean", too. The breechplug is not a problem to clean. A couple of twists from a 1/8" drill bit, a soak in some solvent and it comes clean as new with a few minutes of work.

As far as corrosiveness goes, the jury is still out for me. I left my Omega's barrel uncleaned after shooting BH209 for three days and I had rust. Of course, I immediately blamed the BH209. But after more consideration (and a session of hunting in the rain with my Omega), I have to say that the Omega's barrel is particularly unresistant to rust. I have left the bores of other firearms uncleaned for close to a year without any rust. I have taken other firearms out in the rain and snow and no rust appeared before I was able to clean them. So, the rust may be an Omega Z5 issue, or it may be a BH209 issue. Or a bit of both. Time will tell.

To each his own. If BH209 doesn't work with your gun, don't use it. My slug gun can't close a 5" group with Lightfields. I really want my gun to like Lightfields, but I guess it just ain't in the cards, is it?!

If anyone has some BH209 they are NOT going to use, please PM me...I'll be glad to take it off your hands!

I have a half can if anybody wants it. I sold my last BH209 compatable rifle so I have no need for it. I did like BH209 over T7 but I prefer good 'ol Swiss 3f for my muzzy's. I don't have to swab my White Rifles anyway so that was never an advantage for me. To each their own it would be a boring forum if everybody shot the same rifles and powder.

I will not ship powder. If you want to p/u its yours.

-PM sent!-

I use 777 for all 3 of my ML, and have had great success. When BH209 first came out I was interested, but could not find it for sale anywhere near me, I could have it shipped with the addition of a hazmat charge wich added $$. I dont mind swabbing between shots, never had a problem with the crud ring that a little elbow grease could not handel. As far as the barrel rusting, someone already posted this, thats your fault not the powder. I have nothing against BH209, never shot it. I like my 777, and the deer I have shot with it sure did'nt know the difference.

Never used it never will. Goex and Pyrodex is fine in my guns.

Right now the only thing keeping me from Bh 209 is the price, man it's expensive! and with this economy being so chronically slow i can't justify it.also no one locally carries it and to have it shipped is very expensive also.

builder459

Exactly and when you are retired... the economy is even tighter... Got our 2011 Social Security information in the mail today.... things are going to get even tighter.

But I would say if I were just an occasional shooter - i would shoot BH - even though it might be cheaper to shoot centerfire and reload....

But I burn 6-9 lbs of T7 per year that might work out to close to 14 bottles of BH in a season... so 14 times $25 to $30 per bottle or 9 times $20 per bottle... Now I know you are right....

I buy it When Cabelas has it on sale for $19.99, take the ad to who has coupons out at the time(Bass Pro, Gander Mountain) and they match the price and use the coupon. Last time i got it for $15 a can with the coupon at Cabelas.

i hear you loud and clear..yesterday i was shooting and the wife was shooting her youth model wolverine, then i had my 9 yr old and his friend shooting the wifes rifle also lol. i went through quite a bit of powder and i suspect a lot more in the future since my son absolutely loved shooting that wolverine rifle. he said dad it didnt even kick that bad lol!

builder459

Kids are aboslutely great! 99% of the time and when they join in on family activities - it just make the whole family that much stronger....

BH209 doesn't reliably work in most unmodified CVA rifles and since they sell the most guns, many smaller and general (Marts) retailers don't carry it. Most T/C dealers carry though.

I'm sure once another similar powder makes it to market, prices will come down.

$0.02

That statement in this case especially is so true, considering i didn't see him for 1 1/2 years due to his mothers druggie ways. and i spent another year and still counting in the courts to get custody of him, with no "lawyer" just me.i have had him since august and he's been dove hunting,deer hunting is shooting a .22 LR i gave him and now the muzzle loader and loves doing it all.come to think of it i need to take him quail hunting,before the season ends lol!

I am in total agreement,competition lowers prices..