An Interesting Post from Western Powders
 

I think this thread posted by Hunter8282 on another forum says what a lot of you have been trying to say for a long time. It seems to go the opposite direction that one individual has often said who is trying very hard to follow the CVA company line, with his statement there is nothing wrong with the CVA BP.

I bring it over here as I think it is informational and there are certainly a lot of CVA owners over here that could benefit from the information.

Keep on Plugging Ron... Western loves ya!!!

Hmmm,they didn' R&D there new breech plug for BH209 reliability?

What make of rifles have had problems shooting BlackHorn 209. I don't mean from the open breech problems I had, because in reality the Black Diamond fired the stuff fine, it was just dangerous. But what I mean is, does CVA, Traditions, Remington, Knight, and Thompson Center have problems shooting off blackhorn.

I can tell you my Remington Genesis had no problems at all making the powder ignite. It worked perfect. Also my Knight Disc had no problems, even with the orange primer jackets. Although it plugged my breech plug.

I have thought it seemed odd that a company would make a product that does not work well with a highly regarded and used component such as BH.

I agree with ya'll. Why would a top dog in the blackpowder industry fail to test their firearms with one of the most popular powders on the market? I think CVA just rushed their products out there assuming that the BP's would ignite BH209. This is only speculation though. I have no idea.

As a person who has shot the Bh209 but prefers other powders I would like to suggest another point of view and I am far from a CVA person.
It's kind of like which came first the chicken or the egg but some might think of it as "Why would a company put a substitute powder on the market that has well known ignition problems in a lot of the guns that are out there?"
It is pretty self serving for a powder company to say it is the gun maker's responsibility to make a gun that works for THEIR powder.
Just another point of view from me.
Art

Well said and thought out! I had some ignition problems and ended up having to using a hotter primer to solve my problem.

But in all fairness to BlackHorn 209 from their stand point... when their powder first came out (I don't know if they still do), they ran quite a lot of warnings that their powder worked in this kind of breech plug, but not so well in that kind of breech plug. In this kind of action but not so well in that kind of action. Also they named primers that might give the BlackHorn 209 user problems.

So when a company like CVA was developing their rifles and breech plugs, they might have wanted to take note of what worked in regards to shooting off BlackHorn 209. After all it seems to have quite a following.

I have a question. The rifles with the "adapted" as in drilled out or even redesigned breech plugs.. did that effect the way they handled other powder like Triple Seven or Pyrodex RS?

Flounder,

You brought up a great point. I had never looked at it from that perspective before! Huh, well played sir!

Fair enough Dave. I do think it would have been prudent for any manufacturer to keep in mind how popular this powder has become. On the other hand, I think the Blackhorn has ignition problems even in some of the breech plugs it said were "approved" for its use.

To some extent I agree, but redesigning a breech plug that will reliably ignite ALL black powder sub's would not be that difficult for a company to do. Individuals have accomplished that. No need to redesign the entire rifle.

And a valid thought. Let's think of it this way as well: BH created a product which has produced results a lot of ML shooters were after. Mainly the ability to not have to swab between shots. If it were only that component alone, (which it's not) the powder would probably still have a good following. We know that BH is selling a lot of powder even at the higher cost per shot. So yes, they may have created a powder which only works with certain designs, but ML shooters have dictated by the large consumption and approval of the powder, that they want a gun which it works well in.

Regardless if BH was arrogant (for lack of a better term) in creating a powder that doesn't work well in all guns, they have created such a following with the product, it would now be the wise decision of the gun manufacturers to produce BPs that work with BH.

Another thought: I can't recall a time when I heard someone say, "My BP works great w/BH but not w/Pyrodex, 777 ect" So why would CVA not want to design a plug that allows shooters to use whatever powder they choose? Instead, now if you purchase a CVA it may or may not work with the powder you want to shoot.

Perhaps BH209 wasn't available in Spain and the company was in a rush to finalize their design and get production rolling.

IMHO, there's nothing "wrong" with manufacturing a powder that doesn't reliably ignite with every breech plug, or, a company that designs rifles that don't work with all available components.

The important thing is that the respective manufacturer does list components or breech plugs that have have proven safe and reliable so folks can make intelligent purchasing decisions.

After all, there are lots of cartridges, i.e 6mm Remington and .243 Win that offer identical performance without interchangeability. No one had their knickers in a twist when they couldn't get a Model 70 in 6mm Remington they just bought a Rem 700, or a Mod 70 in 243.

YMMV

got to remember that BH209 was very new on the market when these rifles were being designed.

All of my rifles are CVA's, Apex, Accura, Accura v2, 2 wolfs, and ONE of them, the wolf shoots blackhorn on a factory breech plug. The rest use a .035" flash hole. The V2 on the other hand is running a .032" flash hole and 1/8" flash channel for an experiment.

I made this 2 days ago when someone on another forum was saying that a .035" flash hole only makes a mess in the rifle. 3 shots were taken without cleaning the flash channel, i only put in one shot due to the video upload size. Took freakin 2 1/2 hours!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xj6mfG6NpE

Blackhorn 209 was developed to be a premium powder that would fill a hole in the existing subs. Because it is progressive burning and develops 15 % less pressure and handles heavy sabot loads without much velocity loss and can be shot with out swabbing and not lose accuracy it fills that hole quite well, it also leaves those people that can check the pressure as they go have some of the advantages that hand-loading gives a cartridge reloader. It was not meant to be use in open breach guns because the pressure while lower is maintained several milliseconds longer causing what could be a dangerous blow-back, people that have puller pieces of primer out of their skin can verify this.
Now I have an Omega ,a Triumph and an Encore Endeavor I use it year round in all three and have never had a misfire and I have been using it since it came out.
I don't attempt to use it in my other guns I use pyrodex in them [mostly traditional].
I don't really see much of a problem here, the better CVA have a breach plug with a design that was held over from black powder but modifying it to work is common practice and has been discuss on this forum and several others many times I even modify my TC plugs; careful custom design is what drives this sport to higher levels. There are always a few people who do not keep hand tools or prefer to have some one who has gained knowledge by trial and error to do it for the and there are people here who enjoy helping those people.
Partly it comes down to the fact that you never get more than you pay for and sometimes you are lucky to get that much.

If you are reffering to me, your wrong again. The .035 flash channel is dirty, not the gun itself. And your idea of an 1/8" flash channel is no good either. Though obviously better then .035. The flash channel needs to be 5/32 for the best performance.

Shooting one to to three shots at the range validates nothing at all. It takes lot's of trips to the range in a wide variety of weather conditions to validate performance to any degree.

Your friends at Western Powders clearly posted above that the information you are preaching is false. And it's not one person's opinion either. It's the majority of CVA owners. So, you might as well argue with them. I new the Accura wasn't compatible three days after i bought it. I will say, if i tested it with just three shot's like you do, i would say it was compatible.

You need to get off your computer and quit playing on youtube and spend more quality time in the field and the range. Eventually you will learn what's right and wrong.:s4:

One would have to assume that each and every CVA owner would use BH 209 in there MLer's for CVA to be blamed for the QRBP not igniting the Powder. If that was the case than yea you could blame CVA.
I own many CVA's, I Dont have a QRBP nor did I have to have one of the new CVA's that has one. Im content with using Pyrodox Powder and Pellets. So I have to swab between shots or clean My MLer, it's a MLer and I was'nt looking for a easier way to clean or shoot, the old way works so I use it, and I dont mind the little extra effor involved.
When one buy's a New Car or Truck dont they do research on the Make and Model befor buying so when the get it home there's no surprises....Oh I did'nt know it only has 4 Cylinders, or uses 17" Tires, or is'nt that great in the snow, ect.
One should know what works and what does'nt befor they buy, simple as that. The Manufacture cant make everyone happy, it would be impossible.
When you purchased your MLer Im sure you knew it may not shoot Saboted Bullets well, or Round Balls or Conicals right, you bought it knowing what it shot best and was intended to shoot. So why is that any different when you find out that BH 209 does'nt ignite well with the BP you have in your new MLer, it was up to the Purchaser to do his homework befor he bought one.
Im not blaming BH or CVA, I think the Purchaser has a obligation to know exactly what there buying befor they do, so there's no Surprises after your purchase.
(BP)

Grouse that Optima im shooting in the video has well over 1,500 rounds through it now LOL. 3 shots was just for the video. My normal range sessions go from 20 to 50 rounds depending on my mood. A lot shorter now that i have deer in the back yard finally.

Got an email from CEO of CVA, they are currently working with Western Powders with a new breech plug design, they are testing a few designs out.

Breechplug, about a year ago you started a long thread with a question that went something like, "what makes a perfect breech plug' or some such thing. That thread was very fun and interesting to me, and has led to quite a lot of fun for me in the days, weeks, and months since. I have learned so very very much, because of that thread.

The Omega breech plug is about as good as it gets. I won't write that is perfect, but it is near; perhaps i should. It works with every available powder.

The Accura breech plug works for you, because of your powder choice. I think it is a good enough plug, and i believe you do too. The only powder i have ever used in my Accura is black horn. Every now and again i experienced a hang fire. This led me to get involved in the thread you started, and this led me to making a home made Accura plug that is better than the Omega plug. The reason i write that this Accura plug is better than the Omega plug, is because i can make it fit each primer to my rifle perfectly, and to date have never experienced a hang fire using black horn. It has only seen single digit temperatures yet, but later this winter, it will experience sub-zero temperatures.

Now we have the QRBP. I have fired the QRBP about 50 shots now. As with the Accura, the only powder i have used in the V2, is black horn. This plug amazes me. CVA told me that each plug is 'fitted' to one rifle. The plug comes with a tool, and using the tool, one 'marries' the plug to the barrel. This has resulted in zero blow by past the threads in my rifle. The first time i used it, i used nothing on the threads. No teflon, no grease, nothing. Fifteen shots later, i removed the plug with my fingers, and it felt like it was easier to remove, than it was to install. There may have been a tiny amount of soot on the threads. Then i shot it about 25 more times, with nothing on the threads. It removes so easily with fingers, that it almost causes me to have a thrill. Today, i shot it 10 times, and i had to force myself to keep my hands away from the breech plug, and remove it. To me, the way the QRBP works, is remarkable.

Is the QRBP the elusive perfect plug? Absolutely not!!! The first time i actually saw one with my own eyes, i couldn't hardly believe what i saw. I was shocked beyond words. The powder end of the QRBP is virtually flat! Flat! CVA, after black horn was out for years, made no effort whatsoever to design a plug that would work with black horn. Spending all the time we spent on that thread you started, told me CVA had made quite an error.

I didn't even try the QRBP, because of my previous experience with the Accura, Omega, and that thread about breech plug. The first thing i did was create a powder pocket like the Omega breech plug, and install a vent liner. This past week, with single digit temperatures was a good test for this 'fixed' QRBP. Left overnight in the truck through the bitter cold, loaded with black horn, and dirty, the V2 never failed to fire.

Making the 2010 CVA compatible with all powders would have been so very very simple. The QRBP could have been the 'perfect' breech plug, alas CVA dropped the ball.

Good Post Ron. Now, if you could figure that out why can't those high priced engineers figure that out? Maybe they should hire you on as a consultant.
Art

okay Grouse i modded my Optima's Plug with the best 5/32 flash channel. My first shot was a hang fire, i loaded it how i normally do. After that shot i increased my seating pressure and boom, booom. No problems after that. I am reloading some tubes now for more shooting but after seeing the primers, well i will have the post pictures later.

Okay, the bullet does need to be on the powder. If you are hinting that a loose sabot wont fire with BH209, your wrong again with the right breech plug.:kiss:

ronlaughlin

Have you played around with a TC Speed Breech Plug?

This plug when modified is an excellent BH plug and does not have the power pocket you speak of.

I do not think the powder poclet is the magic key - it is the modification of the flas channel as well as the flash hole.

I have modified several Knight plugs, an Omega plug with the vent liner on the nose. They work very well with any primer you shoose to use + plus they reduce blow back presures on the nose of the primer by offering a larger volume flash channel.

Here is a drawing i made that shows the modifications.



Lee has modified a Speed breech in a simular manner with excellent results. Lehigh has bult me several of this type of BP and we use them all the time with great results even shooting an old Remington 209-4 primer (a primer designed for 410 shot guns.)

I believe Busta has also made these same modifications with great results.

Here is a picture of a couple of modified CVA plugs - they work equally well ignitien BH with any primer, although they are not as clean as yours because I had no way of head spacing...



Just some additional thoughts from the peanut gallery...

I dont shoot sabots so's i wouldnt know. The first shot with thumb pressure seating, just went pop and i saw the bullet skip across the ground. Thats expensive lead i lost!

I have the confidence you will figure it out. :deer:

first shot again on the 5/32 flash channel plug... DOINK! Got the bullet back at least. Entire primer was coated in black soot along with the breech plug and face of the frame.

Them darn CVA'S. LMAO

BTW- Your vent-liner might be wore out.:p

I hope your not scaring those Deer away.:devil:

Buy a Triumph and you won't have to modify the plug :s2: :D

As for the deer comment, i am shooting at my 50 yard range which is about 250 yards away from the deer area. Thanks to the mountain area, you can hardly hear the shots when someone is shooting at the 50 yard range.

Yeah thanks to you and your comment " best is a 5/32" flash channel" i now have a ruined plug that is dirtier than a catholic priest and doesnt fire on the first primer. :mad:

Let me guess, that flash channel works best for you on the custom lehigh plugs for a knight?

This is what the first primers look like. The first primer never sets the charge off now with the 5/32" flash channel.

Next 3 shots,


A great mess in the frame now as well,





Now i will have to order a new plug

Boy, those CVA'S are dirty. Hey send me that plug that's no good. And show me a picture of the powder end of the plug. I want to see the vent-liner.

Is this the plug in my Triumph?

im glad to see you think that its funny, it just shows everyone else what an A hole you are.

You ever shot the 5/32 channel in a CVA or just a knight? You said it was the best.

Luckily fedex just dropped off some cleaning supplies.

Please explain to me why Blkhorn shoots fine out of all my guns(t/c..triumph..ProHunter.Rem-Genesis) and CVA's cant seem to. What is the difference in the Bp's ? Would a hotter primer help the CVA's?

There are differing opinions as to why. My opinion is that the front of the CVA breech plug is too flat. The front of the Omega breech plug has a deep concavity. It is this concavity that makes it work, in my opinion.

When one makes a breech plug for the CVA that has this same concavity, one then experiences 100% reliability.

Now that's not very nice. I dont believe you did it right to tell you the truth. Show me a picture of the powder end of the plug.

send me a liner and i will do it. As from this moment on i have ZERO trust in you now.

Boy did i learn from this, IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT.

You are right, there are different opinions for sure. The flat on the end has nothing to do with it. The Knight Vision plug is flat and it works fine with hotter primers. The Omega Encore plugs are very short. And to boot they have that concave that you are talking about. What that means is, BH209 is really close to the primer. That's why i believe they are reliable. The Knight Elite's/Extreme's have the same concave in one of there plugs. That's why they are reliable. The powder is close to the primer.

You can take any breech plug on the market, and make a 5/32 flame channel to a .031 vent-liner and it will shoot BH209. No problem at all. The Concave is not needed at all. I will say, i like the concave because i do like my powder as close to the primer in any ML or Rifle.

These are my opinions and i have tested all the way's mentioned many times. The powder does not care what gun it's in. The breech plug is the key.

LMAO......Okay Son, send me your plug and i will do what you should of done. And i will also send you that piece you need for your rod if you didnt get it. You dont need to trust me because you already said the plug is ruined now.:patriot: