First Deer With BH 209
12-06-2010 | 08:12 PM
#21
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,703
Likes: 0
From: Idaho
Breechplug
Not true! I expect it everytime I pull the trigger and i am terribly disappointed if a deer makes it more that 30 yards from the point that I shot it... I should say if I have done my part and made the shot I needed. I do believe the bullet you are using makes all the difference in the world.
I have always said if you can create enough trama to the animal with the hit you make on it - to over-ride the flight response of the animal it will drop very quickly. I choose to shoot bullets that do exactly that. Nosler partitions have done it for years and I now believe the Lehigh will and even the Gold Dot will do the same thing.
I have shot Noslers into the chest cavity for years - they will most often completely destroy every organ in the cavity - turn them to dark red jello and I guarantee you that the bullet did not hit all of the organs. The Lehigh did the same thing last week. I do not know how many deer I have shot with a Nosler but I can count on my hand how many made it more that 30 yards and most often it was my fault not the bullet. I have shot only two deer with the Lehigh and the two deer made a total of less than 15 yards. I have only shot one deer with a 250 gold dot from my Omega and it went less than 20 ft.
In Doug's case - I disagree
from the hit he describes - the deer should have never made it that far unless the bullet came apart -which I believe it did. There is no reason that you should have to make that kind of tracking job on a good hit. In a lot of places in our country if the animal gets that far you might as well take a knife and fork to the animal and eat there, because it could be straight up and down.
I thought Doug siad the shot was 120 yards if so this line is also completely wrong BP... - if that XTP did not expand @ 120 yards - it was never going to expand - by that time it had already slowed down considerably... Maybe @ 10-20 yard that theory might work, but a light weight bullet like a 240 @ 120 yards not expanding then you really have a problem.
I am going to hate myself for saying this - but is the norm for you - you need to find a better bullet!!! because you are not doing the animal a favor at all. Sounds like an archery hunt to me...
Your description of what you should expect from a shot animal and it moving that far is just what the non-hunting people need to hear - they are always comparing the amount of suffering caused to animal by us hunters. We do not need tracking jobs. Do it right and you will not have to.
I appologize to anyone that I offended but it most often is not right that an animal moves that far after being shot with a rifle. I understand it in an archery shot but not necessary with a rifle if you do your job.
You cant always expect a Deer to drop on the spot,
I have always said if you can create enough trama to the animal with the hit you make on it - to over-ride the flight response of the animal it will drop very quickly. I choose to shoot bullets that do exactly that. Nosler partitions have done it for years and I now believe the Lehigh will and even the Gold Dot will do the same thing.
I have shot Noslers into the chest cavity for years - they will most often completely destroy every organ in the cavity - turn them to dark red jello and I guarantee you that the bullet did not hit all of the organs. The Lehigh did the same thing last week. I do not know how many deer I have shot with a Nosler but I can count on my hand how many made it more that 30 yards and most often it was my fault not the bullet. I have shot only two deer with the Lehigh and the two deer made a total of less than 15 yards. I have only shot one deer with a 250 gold dot from my Omega and it went less than 20 ft.
In Doug's case - I disagree
The XTP did it's job, the Deer died, then it was up to you to find your kill.
If the XTP hit NO Bone and passed between the Ribs then it gave the Bullet no time to expand upon Impact with the Bone, thus the small exit hole.
I am going to hate myself for saying this - but is the norm for you - you need to find a better bullet!!! because you are not doing the animal a favor at all. Sounds like an archery hunt to me...
Your description of what you should expect from a shot animal and it moving that far is just what the non-hunting people need to hear - they are always comparing the amount of suffering caused to animal by us hunters. We do not need tracking jobs. Do it right and you will not have to.
I appologize to anyone that I offended but it most often is not right that an animal moves that far after being shot with a rifle. I understand it in an archery shot but not necessary with a rifle if you do your job.
Last edited by sabotloader; 12-06-2010 at 08:31 PM.
12-06-2010 | 09:00 PM
#25
Spike
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
From: in BED
BreechPlug Bullets are like women every now n then you fall in love with a BAD one lol. IMO this is what happened to you with XTP's,Yo relax a little and go do the deer a favor and try a new bullet out.I would suggest one of the bullets that SabotLoader is talkin about ..Have a nice day
Last edited by SmokeSeeker; 12-06-2010 at 09:25 PM.
12-06-2010 | 09:01 PM
#26
Thread Starter
Fork Horn
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
Here is a quote from an interesting read. Chuck Hawks Article has some food for thought
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power.htm
He seems to think speed does effect bullet performance. I wonder if the XTP was made for 2000fps?
D
Bullet terminal performance
A factor that has become more and more prominent in discussions of killing power is the terminal performance of hunting bullets. Assuming a rifle of reasonably adequate caliber, selecting the right bullet for the job can play a big role in killing power. Big game should be hunted only with bullets designed for the purpose. Frangible varmint type bullets and FMJ military type bullets are unsuitable for any type of big game hunting, and are illegal in most jurisdictions.
The perfect game bullet should not expand so fast that it fails to reach the vitals of the game being hunted. Nor should it expand so slowly that it essentially drills straight through the animal, expending the majority of its energy on the landscape beyond the target. An ideal bullet should reach the animal's vitals and use the majority of its remaining energy destroying organs and tissue. Often such bullets will be found just beneath the hide on the off side of the carcass.
A factor that has become more and more prominent in discussions of killing power is the terminal performance of hunting bullets. Assuming a rifle of reasonably adequate caliber, selecting the right bullet for the job can play a big role in killing power. Big game should be hunted only with bullets designed for the purpose. Frangible varmint type bullets and FMJ military type bullets are unsuitable for any type of big game hunting, and are illegal in most jurisdictions.
The perfect game bullet should not expand so fast that it fails to reach the vitals of the game being hunted. Nor should it expand so slowly that it essentially drills straight through the animal, expending the majority of its energy on the landscape beyond the target. An ideal bullet should reach the animal's vitals and use the majority of its remaining energy destroying organs and tissue. Often such bullets will be found just beneath the hide on the off side of the carcass.
He seems to think speed does effect bullet performance. I wonder if the XTP was made for 2000fps?
D
12-07-2010 | 03:07 AM
#27
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,976
Likes: 0
From: Northern Chautauqua Co. N.Y.
Breechplug
Not true! I expect it everytime I pull the trigger and i am terribly disappointed if a deer makes it more that 30 yards from the point that I shot it... I should say if I have done my part and made the shot I needed. I do believe the bullet you are using makes all the difference in the world.
I have always said if you can create enough trama to the animal with the hit you make on it - to over-ride the flight response of the animal it will drop very quickly. I choose to shoot bullets that do exactly that. Nosler partitions have done it for years and I now believe the Lehigh will and even the Gold Dot will do the same thing.
I have shot Noslers into the chest cavity for years - they will most often completely destroy every organ in the cavity - turn them to dark red jello and I guarantee you that the bullet did not hit all of the organs. The Lehigh did the same thing last week. I do not know how many deer I have shot with a Nosler but I can count on my hand how many made it more that 30 yards and most often it was my fault not the bullet. I have shot only two deer with the Lehigh and the two deer made a total of less than 15 yards. I have only shot one deer with a 250 gold dot from my Omega and it went less than 20 ft.
In Doug's case - I disagree
from the hit he describes - the deer should have never made it that far unless the bullet came apart -which I believe it did. There is no reason that you should have to make that kind of tracking job on a good hit. In a lot of places in our country if the animal gets that far you might as well take a knife and fork to the animal and eat there, because it could be straight up and down.
I thought Doug siad the shot was 120 yards if so this line is also completely wrong BP... - if that XTP did not expand @ 120 yards - it was never going to expand - by that time it had already slowed down considerably... Maybe @ 10-20 yard that theory might work, but a light weight bullet like a 240 @ 120 yards not expanding then you really have a problem.
I am going to hate myself for saying this - but is the norm for you - you need to find a better bullet!!! because you are not doing the animal a favor at all. Sounds like an archery hunt to me...
Your description of what you should expect from a shot animal and it moving that far is just what the non-hunting people need to hear - they are always comparing the amount of suffering caused to animal by us hunters. We do not need tracking jobs. Do it right and you will not have to.
I appologize to anyone that I offended but it most often is not right that an animal moves that far after being shot with a rifle. I understand it in an archery shot but not necessary with a rifle if you do your job.
Not true! I expect it everytime I pull the trigger and i am terribly disappointed if a deer makes it more that 30 yards from the point that I shot it... I should say if I have done my part and made the shot I needed. I do believe the bullet you are using makes all the difference in the world.
I have always said if you can create enough trama to the animal with the hit you make on it - to over-ride the flight response of the animal it will drop very quickly. I choose to shoot bullets that do exactly that. Nosler partitions have done it for years and I now believe the Lehigh will and even the Gold Dot will do the same thing.
I have shot Noslers into the chest cavity for years - they will most often completely destroy every organ in the cavity - turn them to dark red jello and I guarantee you that the bullet did not hit all of the organs. The Lehigh did the same thing last week. I do not know how many deer I have shot with a Nosler but I can count on my hand how many made it more that 30 yards and most often it was my fault not the bullet. I have shot only two deer with the Lehigh and the two deer made a total of less than 15 yards. I have only shot one deer with a 250 gold dot from my Omega and it went less than 20 ft.
In Doug's case - I disagree
from the hit he describes - the deer should have never made it that far unless the bullet came apart -which I believe it did. There is no reason that you should have to make that kind of tracking job on a good hit. In a lot of places in our country if the animal gets that far you might as well take a knife and fork to the animal and eat there, because it could be straight up and down.
I thought Doug siad the shot was 120 yards if so this line is also completely wrong BP... - if that XTP did not expand @ 120 yards - it was never going to expand - by that time it had already slowed down considerably... Maybe @ 10-20 yard that theory might work, but a light weight bullet like a 240 @ 120 yards not expanding then you really have a problem.
I am going to hate myself for saying this - but is the norm for you - you need to find a better bullet!!! because you are not doing the animal a favor at all. Sounds like an archery hunt to me...
Your description of what you should expect from a shot animal and it moving that far is just what the non-hunting people need to hear - they are always comparing the amount of suffering caused to animal by us hunters. We do not need tracking jobs. Do it right and you will not have to.
I appologize to anyone that I offended but it most often is not right that an animal moves that far after being shot with a rifle. I understand it in an archery shot but not necessary with a rifle if you do your job.
If you have a better Bullet in mind for me to try that will give me the same or better groups out of My MLer's, weigh around 250gr's or less and do a better job than the XTP's let me know and I'll give em a try.
I can Honestly and Truely say that for me the XTP's have never let me down a single time. If I properly placed the bullet in the right place and knew it for sure and lost a Deer than I would have changed Bullet's as I consider 1 Deer lost, 1 too many.
Sure and again it would be great to have every Deer Drop in it's Tracks after the shot. But out of 30+ Years of Hunting and between my own and other's that I have witnessed I could mabey count on both hands the number of Deer that dropped in there Tracks after the shot with a Shotgun or Muzzleloader, unless they were Head or Spine Shot. Now a Rifle is a different thing. And I know a MLer is considered a Rifle, and if you can show me a Bullet that does the same shot from a 30-06 for my Mler than I'll use it.
I watched a Hunting Show the other day on the Hunting Channel and they used Mler's for the Hunt and took some Great Buck's, none Dropped on the Spot, they all ran off and out of sight from the camera and had to be found, was that a Bad thing?
Im flexible and always willing to make a change as long as it's for the good and to help me better Harvest a Animal. But again I dont consider My 100% Success rate with the XTP's that bad.
If there was a Bullet that Dropped each and every Deer Shot with it in it's Tracks everytime, than why is'nt each and every one on here using that exact Bullet.
(BP)
12-07-2010 | 03:59 AM
#28
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,445
Likes: 0
Lung-shot deer can easily go 100 yds. Never give up on looking for a deer before scouring every bit of cover within 200 yds of the last sign. Then do a grid search or some other methodical approach. Then just look in the general direction the deer went, looking along trails, in blowdowns, ditches, thickets, sources of water, etc.
It is easy to get that "low" feeling and quit looking, but don't do it. I have found a few deer for others that just seemed disinterested in putting forth the effort to track.
It is easy to get that "low" feeling and quit looking, but don't do it. I have found a few deer for others that just seemed disinterested in putting forth the effort to track.
12-07-2010 | 04:25 AM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,732
Likes: 0
From: Rapid City, South Dakota
Now, some bad written about bullet have to be ignored, because of the source. Some good written about bullet should be ignored, because of the source.
Having killed my share of elk, and more than my share of deer, i believe deer aren't really so very hard to kill. There are so so many bullet choices that will work nicely at putting them down humanely.
Another thing i have puzzled over, is why do so many pay premium prices for bullet, when there are superior bullet available at near target shooting bullet prices.
It is my opinion that XTP bullet are fine for deer, however, i am positive there are better bullet available for near the same cost.
12-07-2010 | 04:27 AM
#30
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,410
Likes: 1
From: Comance county, OK
I talked to a game official (who also was a sniper in the military) about it at check-in. He said XTP's are a great bullet at shorter ranges and speeds of up to 1200 fps.
Which 240 grain XTP bullet were you using? There are two 240 grain XTP bullets: The 240 grain .430 XTP and the 240 grain .452 XTP Magnum.
In any event the former sniper is wrong. According to the Hornady performance chart that is no longer available on their site: The 240 grain .430 bullet is OK to velocities up to 1,700 fps and the 240 grain .452 Magnum bullet is OK to velocities in up to 1,900 fps.
This 240 grain .430 XTP killed two deer. It doubled lunged one, entered the chest of another and came to rest in the offside ham. The powder charge was 130 grains of granular Pyrodex.
